The National Parks - America's best idea?

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pw
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by pw »

Whatever they are doing, I think they still have a bug or two in the timing. I snagged this from one of the webcams. I thought the permit system was supposed to spread out when people can enter the park.
RMNP Entrance..jpeg
RMNP Entrance..jpeg (117.54 KiB) Viewed 2070 times

https://www.nps.gov/media/webcam/view.h ... B864D072FC
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pwahl/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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madbuck
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by madbuck »

Scott P wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:04 pm ban cars in the park and make everyone take a shuttle to every trailhead or viewpoint. The latter is what a lot of parks in places like Europe do, but I don't think people would go for that.
Denali, and then sub-parts of parks in the summer like Glacier and Bear Lake.
I agree there will be resistance, and with some good reason (not just auto-centric mentality)...
Although I'm generally I proponent of functional mass-transit, the pandemic sort of blew a major hole in it as a complete solution for the future.

****
What a cluster overall -- it sounds like there was an earlier electronic warning signs, but they were vague. I feel worst for those that *did* have reservations but had to wait in the one hour line! (Something reservations should take care of).
****

Prediction: stay tuned for seeing more tourists on rental e-bikes to get around this, starting with Class-1 (pedal assist with inhuman wattage) and arguments for Class-2 (motorcycles with pedals), with traditional cyclists on safety bicycles suffering blowback.
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by rijaca »

Scott P wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:04 pm

It seems that the only alternatives to parks such as Rocky Mountain... to ban cars in the park and make everyone take a shuttle to every trailhead or viewpoint. The latter is what a lot of parks in places like Europe do, but I don't think people would go for that. Maybe in the future.
Zion NP bans private vehicles in Zion Canyon. Have to take a shuttle bus to the TH for Angels Landing (for example). Had to wait in line close to hour to catch the bus one spring weekday afternoon a couple years ago.
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by 12ersRule »

madbuck wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:29 pm Prediction: stay tuned for seeing more tourists on rental e-bikes to get around this, starting with Class-1 (pedal assist with inhuman wattage) and arguments for Class-2 (motorcycles with pedals), with traditional cyclists on safety bicycles suffering blowback.
Great minds think alike. Posting about the next great scourge, e-bikes, was in my mental queue for thread topics. We saw quite a few e-bikes in Zion. I'm even more concerned about e-bikes on mountain bike trails though.
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by ker0uac »

I can't wait for people to return to traveling to big cities and resorts, and going on cruises.

In the meantime, I've been exploring National Forests, which don't get many visitors, don't charge entry, have less red tape and often allow OHV travel.

National parks are a double-edged sword. Such status provides "maximum protection" for the land. But, at the same time, such status also automatically makes the area more accessible, inviting tons of people to visit and eventually damage the environment. For instance, WV just got its first national park. Before, the gorge wasn't very known, but going forward, it sure will be. Will the benefits afforded by the NP status offset the damage created by tourism on steroids'.

If we truly want to do what is in the best interest of preserving the backcountry, then NPS should stop advertising their lands or making them ever more accessible.
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by rijaca »

ker0uac wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:58 pm
National parks are a double-edged sword. Such status provides "maximum protection" for the land. But, at the same time, such status also automatically makes the area more accessible, inviting tons of people to visit and eventually damage the environment. For instance, WV just got its first national park. Before, the gorge wasn't very known, but going forward, it sure will be. Will the benefits afforded by the NP status offset the damage created by tourism on steroids'.

If we truly want to do what is in the best interest of preserving the backcountry, then NPS should stop advertising their lands or making them ever more accessible.
National Parks were/are intended to be accessible to all the peeps. Hence, visitor centers, roads, uber-highway trails, etc... Educating the visitors is what is needed to prevent damage.
Wilderness areas have been established for 'maximum protection'. Hence the rules regarding motorized travel, group size, etc.
Although some portions of the National Parks have been designated as Wilderness Areas also.

Again, educating the visitors is essential (and maybe stricter enforcement of the existing rules).
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by ker0uac »

rijaca wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:29 pm
Educating the visitors is what is needed to prevent damage.
Again, educating the visitors is essential (and maybe stricter enforcement of the existing rules).
You must remember the anti-drug educational campaign that started in the 80s. Most studies have shown that those campaigns have very little impact on people already inclined to drug use. Various studies point to the strong correlation between drugs and socioeconomic indicators. As those indicators improve, so does drug use. You must also remember the war on drugs. Mandatory minimums and the militarization of police also didn't do much to address drug use. I think it's time to throw out the educating and carrot/stick approach.

The government isn't a tourism operator. It shouldn't be in the business of offering vacation destinations. NPS shouldn't be paving backcountry roads and trails and building facilities. NPS shouldn't be putting up stairs and guardrails. It also shouldn't be advertising NPS lands to attract more visitors. National Forests, except for those with main attractions like certain 14ers, are for the most part more preserved than National Parks, simply bc they lack facilities and easy access.
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by rperth »

I always vote for protecting National Parks and public lands. But, if they are going to limit access then I say drill away. If the current management can’t run the parks without limiting the access then maybe it’s time to find new management. We all support our parks and public lands financially through taxes. The problem is not the visitors, it is the park management. Open RMNP for all without reservations!
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by Dave B »

rperth wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:17 pm I always vote for protecting National Parks and public lands. But, if they are going to limit access then I say drill away. If the current management can’t run the parks without limiting the access then maybe it’s time to find new management. We all support our parks and public lands financially through taxes. The problem is not the visitors, it is the park management. Open RMNP for all without reservations!
I also am always willing to sacrifice something I stand for when minor inconveniences get in the way. FOR THE PEOPLE!

We should start a band.
Make wilderness less accessible.
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by cottonmountaineering »

rperth wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:17 pm I always vote for protecting National Parks and public lands. But, if they are going to limit access then I say drill away. If the current management can’t run the parks without limiting the access then maybe it’s time to find new management. We all support our parks and public lands financially through taxes. The problem is not the visitors, it is the park management. Open RMNP for all without reservations!
we should just turn the entirety of rmnp into a parking lot so everyone can access :lol:
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by ker0uac »

A private enterprise uses the supply/demand curve to control usage. As prices go up, eventually the number of people wanting to visit a certain attraction will equal its recommended capacity. So if the NPS wants to limit visitation while making lands ever more accessible, then raise prices. RMNP charges $35/vehicle. Bump it up to $70/vehicle and see how demand changes. The government already has a history of taxes to curb demand for certain goods. The current administration is against fossil fuels, and it's not shy about doing what it can to raise oil prices to curb demand.
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Re: The National Parks - America's best idea?

Post by crossfitter »

ker0uac wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:48 pm A private enterprise uses the supply/demand curve to control usage. As prices go up, eventually the number of people wanting to visit a certain attraction will equal its recommended capacity. So if the NPS wants to limit visitation while making lands ever more accessible, then raise prices. RMNP charges $35/vehicle. Bump it up to $70/vehicle and see how demand changes. The government already has a history of taxes to curb demand for certain goods. The current administration is against fossil fuels, and it's not shy about doing what it can to raise oil prices to curb demand.
Alternatively, reduce demand by making access less convenient. Bulldoze all the visitor centers and parking lots, and move the trailheads back a few miles until the number of people willing to work for that hike falls to sustainable levels. We can probably fix many 14er trailheads with the same strategy (see: Grays and Torreys)
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