Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
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- Been_Jammin
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
I am targeting Cross Couloir when the road opens up. My plan was to use BD strap-on cramps with my waterproof Keen hiking boots. Is this a dumb move?
Here is my thought process... I've climbed almost as steep of snow as Cross in just microspikes. Late June the Couloir should be soft enough to kick steps. It is a popular route and a boot pack will likely already be established.
I am not a budget mountaineer... I was thinking about trying a pair of Scarpa or Sportiva three season mountaineering boots next. But, I hate to replace gear that isn't all the way cashed... and I just can't help but think my Keens got one more go in them.
Here is my thought process... I've climbed almost as steep of snow as Cross in just microspikes. Late June the Couloir should be soft enough to kick steps. It is a popular route and a boot pack will likely already be established.
I am not a budget mountaineer... I was thinking about trying a pair of Scarpa or Sportiva three season mountaineering boots next. But, I hate to replace gear that isn't all the way cashed... and I just can't help but think my Keens got one more go in them.
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
For me it's more about whether you're actually front pointing, or kicking steps while wearing crampons.
It's a subtle point to be sure.
To me, front pointing is when just the front points are bearing weight.
Kicking steps while wearing crampons is different, although most people would call it front pointing.
For the purpose of this reply, if you'ret crampons alone are bearing the weight, good luck using strap on and soft boots.
But if you're kicking steps into snow, then yes, you can get pretty far.
Ankle flexibility and knowing when to french and when to kick is important.
Efficiency will get you further than pure strength or fitness.
It's a subtle point to be sure.
To me, front pointing is when just the front points are bearing weight.
Kicking steps while wearing crampons is different, although most people would call it front pointing.
For the purpose of this reply, if you'ret crampons alone are bearing the weight, good luck using strap on and soft boots.
But if you're kicking steps into snow, then yes, you can get pretty far.
Ankle flexibility and knowing when to french and when to kick is important.
Efficiency will get you further than pure strength or fitness.
- Carl_Healy
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
That was me last Saturday on my very first snow climb up Cristo...Conor wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:07 pm I once met a person in a couloir who admitted it was their first snow climb. My comment to them was my calves were tired just watching them in the first couple hundred feet. I then went over a few crampon techniques with them. front pointing has its place, but learn solid techniques. your calves will thank me.
Though to be honest, I started up the couloir using the french technique, but then I consciously swapped over to front pointing because, at least to me, it actually seemed less tiring. I probably used front pointing 75% of the way up Cristo and my calves felt totally fine the whole way. Calves weren't even really sore the next day?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'll definitely make more of an effort to use french technique moving forward though, just in case on longer climbs front pointing starts to really catch up to my calves.
If you can't run, you walk
If you can't walk, you crawl
If you can't crawl, you find someone to carry you
If you can't walk, you crawl
If you can't crawl, you find someone to carry you
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
My 2cents...Alpine/Water ice is usually used as a descriptor of sorts. Alpine tends (emphasis on tends...ice is fickle at the best of times) to be harder, more consistent in both composition and appearance, and usually tells the climber they'll be in for a longer day. Water ice on the other hand can be highly variable from day to day (hour to hour?), it can be plastic/wet/bullet hard/etc. Water ice tends to be crux-ier, with shorter more intense sections. Alpine grades usually tend to be more consistent (like 500' of AI3). Alpine ice usually forms from continual melting and freezing of glacial snow, hence it's characteristics. Water ice tends to form from a waterfall/spring/runoff that just continually builds on top of itself. Verglas or other transient ice is a bit different. It's something you actively avoid rather than go out of your way to climb.DestroyMySweater wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:02 pm I'm not looking to do any serious ice climbing (like waterfalls or Ouray Park or something). Sheepishly I don't really know the types of ice that people list here, though. What exactly is alpine ice, water ice, mixed ice? I sort of thought ice was ice. I mean, I've definitely encountered ice on climbs -- the dark ice that's really thin, ice that looks like it has melted and re-frozen, and ice that seems like snow that has just hardened. So far this hasn't been on anything too steep so it's not been too big a deal (though I have had to skirt around spots rather than attacking them head on...).
Either way they don't really mean much until you get to AI or WI3/3+. Below that ice is more like steep snow in that it's somewhat vertical hiking, though harder and obviously more intense than snow. At 3 and above you probably want an ice-climbing specific dual or monopoint crampon, and anything 4 and above you'll probably want a good set of tools (over your alpine hybrid axes). Mixed is a whole nuther monster. It can be similar to class 3 hiking on rock with snow, or terrifyingly loose and overhanging with miserable pro. Though similar to ice, M3 and below are more hike-y and M4 and above usually involve some or a lot of dry tooling.
- Robbie Crouse
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
[quote]For me it's more about whether you're actually front pointing, or kicking steps while wearing crampons.
It's a subtle point to be sure.
To me, front pointing is when just the front points are bearing weight.
Kicking steps while wearing crampons is different, although most people would call it front pointing.
For the purpose of this reply, if you'ret crampons alone are bearing the weight, good luck using strap on and soft boots.
But if you're kicking steps into snow, then yes, you can get pretty far.
Ankle flexibility and knowing when to french and when to kick is important.
Efficiency will get you further than pure strength or fitness.[/quote]
Yeah, I assumed that "kick stepping" and "front pointing" were synonymous. In your definition I guess front pointing would be limited just to near vertical ice climbing then, right? Or at least really firm snow.
I admit to being a budget mountaineer, so if I can continue to get away with my spikes and Trail Crampons (they seem like something of a hybrid, not sure of others' experience), then I'd be happy to. I guess I've already been doing something like the french method (though I'm sure my technique isn't "correct"), but I wasn't sure if that would continue to work on steeper climbs. If front pointing isn't really necessary, I probably don't need the front points of crampons.
One other thing I thought I'd ask everyone and that is going from snow to rock. Is that easier with crampons or with spikes / trail crampons? I'm not sure how long the teeth are on strap-on crampons but my Hillsound Pros are about an inch long.
Thanks all.
It's a subtle point to be sure.
To me, front pointing is when just the front points are bearing weight.
Kicking steps while wearing crampons is different, although most people would call it front pointing.
For the purpose of this reply, if you'ret crampons alone are bearing the weight, good luck using strap on and soft boots.
But if you're kicking steps into snow, then yes, you can get pretty far.
Ankle flexibility and knowing when to french and when to kick is important.
Efficiency will get you further than pure strength or fitness.[/quote]
Yeah, I assumed that "kick stepping" and "front pointing" were synonymous. In your definition I guess front pointing would be limited just to near vertical ice climbing then, right? Or at least really firm snow.
I admit to being a budget mountaineer, so if I can continue to get away with my spikes and Trail Crampons (they seem like something of a hybrid, not sure of others' experience), then I'd be happy to. I guess I've already been doing something like the french method (though I'm sure my technique isn't "correct"), but I wasn't sure if that would continue to work on steeper climbs. If front pointing isn't really necessary, I probably don't need the front points of crampons.
One other thing I thought I'd ask everyone and that is going from snow to rock. Is that easier with crampons or with spikes / trail crampons? I'm not sure how long the teeth are on strap-on crampons but my Hillsound Pros are about an inch long.
Thanks all.
- handonbroward
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
Conor are you both giving the French credit for inventing modern crampon technique and slandering their work ethic in one post?! Gave me a good chuckle.Conor wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:07 pm Without an objective or goal, it is hard to make a recommendation. But...I would love a pair of "summer mountaineering" boots that are much more flexible in the shank and lighter. A semi auto to match would be an ideal setup that gets me through 95% of what I will ever climb. Good for easy WI or even AI. If looking for modular crampons go petzl unless BD has "Fixed" their non-modular nature.
I once met a person in a couloir who admitted it was their first snow climb. My comment to them was my calves were tired just watching them in the first couple hundred feet. I then went over a few crampon techniques with them. front pointing has its place, but learn solid techniques. your calves will thank me.
french technique is what I use the most.
Screenshot.jpg
Besides that...
"Climbing Ice" by Chouinard is great resource, if a bit outdated. Still an absolute classic worth the read, and a good addition to any climbing literature collection.
"I hurt, therefore I am" - Barry Blanchard
Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
For years I used fairly soft soled hiking boots, plus BD strap on crampons. Did a lot of couloirs and even Orizaba with them, and they work. HOWEVER, it was more tiring then using stiff soled mountaineering boots, and they popped off the toe a lot. Usually a whack with an ice axe popped them back on, but its not ideal.
I tried them on true ice climbing and they were horrible.
Now I own a pair of scarpas and fully auto crampons. I don't enjoy hiking in a stiff sole, but they are so much more secure.
Honestly, on fairly low angle stuff, i think having an ice axe is more important then crampons versus microspikes. Microspikes will work well enough to get you somewhere unsafe where an axe can save your life.
I tried them on true ice climbing and they were horrible.
Now I own a pair of scarpas and fully auto crampons. I don't enjoy hiking in a stiff sole, but they are so much more secure.
Honestly, on fairly low angle stuff, i think having an ice axe is more important then crampons versus microspikes. Microspikes will work well enough to get you somewhere unsafe where an axe can save your life.
After climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb. -Nelson Mandela
Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called Ego. -Nietzsche
Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called Ego. -Nietzsche
Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
In years of steep couloir climbing in bulletproof conditions, my preferred combo is still BD strap on crampons and rigid mountaineering boots. The BD Contact Straps fit Lowa mountaineering boots (Mtn Expert/Alpine Expert) well enough to comfortably climb WI3+. I'm now on my second pair of these: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/e ... t-crampon/. Automatic crampons would be fine too of course.
Those Hillsound crampons may be no good, though. With a rigid boot the points will actually extend beyond the toe as is necessary for front pointing (unlike in the photo), but those frontpoints still look kind of short.
Anyway, I'd start with rigid boots and see how your crampons fit them. Also I should mention that, while rigid boots that have toe/heel welts to receive automatic crampons (like the aforementioned Lowas) are more expensive, it's nice to have the flexibility. I ended up climbing about half my ice this season in the Alpine Experts (with BD Cyborgs) and will use them with the BD strap ons for any snow climbing.
Those Hillsound crampons may be no good, though. With a rigid boot the points will actually extend beyond the toe as is necessary for front pointing (unlike in the photo), but those frontpoints still look kind of short.
Anyway, I'd start with rigid boots and see how your crampons fit them. Also I should mention that, while rigid boots that have toe/heel welts to receive automatic crampons (like the aforementioned Lowas) are more expensive, it's nice to have the flexibility. I ended up climbing about half my ice this season in the Alpine Experts (with BD Cyborgs) and will use them with the BD strap ons for any snow climbing.
- SchralpTheGnar
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
Your calves will tell you if your kicking steps or front pointing that’s for sure, in all the snow climbs I’ve done only about 5-10% were frozen snow and I’d use a variety of techniques to get up, but after 1500 vertical I’d be worked, felt like 10x more effort than snow climbing and kicking steps, this is with AT boots and clip in BD crampons
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
Rigid boots are certainly necessary for ice, and help for snow. The steeper the ice, the more they're required.
My favorite boots are rigid but well cambered which means they still walk pretty well so I'm not clomping around. However, on vertical ice it means your toe is pointing too far up and your points won't engage properly.
That's when you need a flat-soled boot and fully auto crampon (ok it doesn't have to be a fully auto crampon, but your boot has to have a toe welt).
I realize we're getting a little out of the realm of snow climbs and couloirs at this point. But still. perhaps the point isn't that you NEED automatic (or even hybrid) crampons. The point is that boots with a heel welt, which will accept hybrid crampons, will get you up steeper things easier. And boots with toe and heel welts, which accept automatic crampons, will get you up even steeper and harder things.
It's a little of pairing things.
For everyone is that full strap crampons are fine, but you'd be better off with a hybrid crampon because to get the most out of your crampons you'll want a boot to match. And if you've got a hybrid compatible boot then you might as well get a hybrid crampon.
Otherwise stick with microspikes and trail boots.
My favorite boots are rigid but well cambered which means they still walk pretty well so I'm not clomping around. However, on vertical ice it means your toe is pointing too far up and your points won't engage properly.
That's when you need a flat-soled boot and fully auto crampon (ok it doesn't have to be a fully auto crampon, but your boot has to have a toe welt).
I realize we're getting a little out of the realm of snow climbs and couloirs at this point. But still. perhaps the point isn't that you NEED automatic (or even hybrid) crampons. The point is that boots with a heel welt, which will accept hybrid crampons, will get you up steeper things easier. And boots with toe and heel welts, which accept automatic crampons, will get you up even steeper and harder things.
It's a little of pairing things.
For everyone is that full strap crampons are fine, but you'd be better off with a hybrid crampon because to get the most out of your crampons you'll want a boot to match. And if you've got a hybrid compatible boot then you might as well get a hybrid crampon.
Otherwise stick with microspikes and trail boots.
- susanjoypaul
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
So true! I can kick steps all day long (thank you stationary bike, squats, lunges, and butt machine) but front-pointing kills my calves. I just realized how weak they had gotten a couple of months ago, my first time ice climbing this year. I did three climbs and couldn't even make it to the top of the pitch, my calves were screaming so bad.SchralpTheGnar wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 8:11 am Your calves will tell you if your kicking steps or front pointing that’s for sure, in all the snow climbs I’ve done only about 5-10% were frozen snow and I’d use a variety of techniques to get up, but after 1500 vertical I’d be worked, felt like 10x more effort than snow climbing and kicking steps, this is with AT boots and clip in BD crampons
Here's what I think happened: during COVID, I switched from the gym to working out at home. So where I used to do standing calf raises with a couple hundred pounds for my gastrocnemius muscles and seated calf raises with a couple of 45s for my soleus muscles, I've only been using 30 pounds at home - 15s in each hand for standing, and a 15 on each knee at the top of the stairs for seated. It's just not enough weight. That, coupled with the extra pandemic-pounds I put on over the past year, just did me in. I was honestly shocked by how hard climbing was on my calves. I may have to rejoin the danged gym just for those two machines.
- Altitude High
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Re: Front Pointing on Strap-On Crampons
What was it about the Oboz that didn't go well with the strap ons?Wildernessjane wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:09 pm On a side note, I used strap on crampons with my Oboz this past winter and that didn’t play out so well. I wouldn’t recommend it.