14ers.com

Throwing this out to the peanut gallery. I built this anchor earlier this evening leading a moderate trad route in Garden of the Gods. Do you think it is bomber?

Solid -> the horn I slung the rope around was solid and would not break. It was above the ledge I was standing on so there was a very low likely hood the rope would slip off.

Equalized -> I clove hitched myself and the master point together with a non-locker. I should of used a locker here. The angles seem appropriate.

Redundant -> I am doing a redirect through the master point instead of belaying straight off the anchor. I am 205 lbs and was belaying somebody much lighter. I was standing on a very wide ledge with plenty of objects that would of stopped me from going over the edge. I am considering myself the redundancy... if the horn broke or somehow the rope slipped off the horn I could of arrested a fall.

Efficient -> Anchor built entirely with the climbing rope plus two biners. Took 2 minutes to set-up... maybe another 2 minutes to check everything.

No Extension -> Kind of N/A here since my body is the redundancy. I guess I would of shock loaded my belay loop if the horn broke. So maybe I missed this.

The blue biner is triaxialy loaded. It is unlikely that the forces of belaying your second will exceed biner’s strength, especially if it is a locker, but triaxial loading is to be avoided.
A good way would be to use a cordelette to make the master point.
You can use the master point to set up a guides belay so that you are not in the redirected belay loop and there will be no force on you if the second falls.

What would be the purpose of making it this complicated? No critisism at all intended; just curious.

Horn is bomber, wouldn’t worry about redundancy. Sling the horn with a > double length sling, tie an overhand to make a shelf, locking biner in the shelf you made, clove hitch the locking biner with the rope - now you’re anchored in. Get an ATC Guide, locking biner on the bottom of the sling, set up the ATC and belay your second.

Is it bomber? Probably, or at least probably good enough to belay off for a climber ascending from below. But that's premised on the pillar itself being bomber i.e. no cracks. Not crazy about the rope angle over the top, but I'll assume you're correct that the rope couldn't slip over the top. You could probably lessen the chance of that happening by making it a seated belay, it would improve the rope angle. And yeah, the loading on the biner isn't great. I think triaxial loading may be more an academic than real life concern (with a shock load the knots on the biner should be pulled along the spine of the biner vs. laterally across the gate, but that's speculation based off a grainy photo). A bigger concern to me is all the knots, one right over the gate. A locker would help, or at least a couple of opposing biners.

Oh, and if this were a multi-pitch climb this anchor would scare me. An upward pull might lift the loop off the pillar. No ability to plug a couple of cams in the crack to the right?

All that said, I'd belay a second off that if it was your best option. But hey, I've belayed off a sagebrush, what do I know?

-Tom

PS: What climb? New Era?

I agree with everything Osprey said. I'm looking at your pictures on my cell phone, so I can't see all the details on your blue biner, but you also have to worry about the gate opening even if the awkward loading doesn't break the biner. Critical biners like that should be lockers or 2 biners with opposing gates.

Without more info about the climb it's hard to say if that's a good anchor or not. After bringing up your partner, what was going to happen next? Are you on a walk off ledge, or are you going to rap off, or was someone going to lead another pitch?

Tom replied while I was writing this, so he already covered some of my points

Scott P wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:35 pm What would be the purpose of making it this complicated? No critisism at all intended; just curious.

Purpose/goal was to build an anchor using only the rope and as little gear as possible. Thinking about it more I could of skipped the blue biner all together and tied a master point there.

TomPierce wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:50 pm Is it bomber? Probably, or at least probably good enough to belay off for a climber ascending from below. But that's premised on the pillar itself being bomber i.e. no cracks. Not crazy about the rope angle over the top, but I'll assume you're correct that the rope couldn't slip over the top. You could probably lessen the chance of that happening by making it a seated belay, it would improve the rope angle. And yeah, the loading on the biner isn't great. I think triaxial loading may be more an academic than real life concern (with a shock load the knots on the biner should be pulled along the spine of the biner vs. laterally across the gate, but that's speculation based off a grainy photo). A bigger concern to me is all the knots, one right over the gate. A locker would help, or at least a couple of opposing biners.

Oh, and if this were a multi-pitch climb this anchor would scare me. An upward pull might lift the loop off the pillar. No ability to plug a couple of cams in the crack to the right?

All that said, I'd belay a second off that if it was your best option. But hey, I've belayed off a sagebrush, what do I know?

-Tom

PS: What climb? New Era?

Upward pull wasn’t a risk. This was top of the route and we were walking off. Probably could of plugged a 3” Cam to the right. I agree with everyone so far on this thread... not crazy about that non locker.

This was west gully on south gateway rock... I thought it would get me to the summit of south gateway rock. It did not. And lost sun so walked off. I led New Era last Novermber... that is a classic.

DaveLanders wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:00 pm I agree with everything Osprey said. I'm looking at your pictures on my cell phone, so I can't see all the details on your blue biner, but you also have to worry about the gate opening even if the awkward loading doesn't break the biner. Critical biners like that should be lockers or 2 biners with opposing gates.

Without more info about the climb it's hard to say if that's a good anchor or not. After bringing up your partner, what was going to happen next? Are you on a walk off ledge, or are you going to rap off, or was someone going to lead another pitch?

Tom replied while I was writing this, so he already covered some of my points

This was top of route and we were walking off. I do not think this would of been an appropriate anchor to start another pitch with.

justiner wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:45 pm Horn is bomber, wouldn’t worry about redundancy. Sling the horn with a > double length sling, tie an overhand to make a shelf, locking biner in the shelf you made, clove hitch the locking biner with the rope - now you’re anchored in. Get an ATC Guide, locking biner on the bottom of the sling, set up the ATC and belay your second.

This is text book. Lol. Thank you for the perspective. Guide belaying straight off anchor is definitely my preference... I guess I thought having my weight as a back up added some value... maybe not. I had a double length sling in my rack... I thought I was being efficient using the rope. Using a sling would of been simpler.

osprey wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:29 pm The blue biner is triaxialy loaded. It is unlikely that the forces of belaying your second will exceed biner’s strength, especially if it is a locker, but triaxial loading is to be avoided.
A good way would be to use a cordelette to make the master point.
You can use the master point to set up a guides belay so that you are not in the redirected belay loop and there will be no force on you if the second falls.

Thanks Osprey. Good tips that I’ll keep in mind next time I’m out.

One of the reasons for following Einstein’s axiom, “everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler” in anchor building is to make it easy to safety.

Somehow your search for simplicity makes this seem difficult to make that assessment. Maybe the photos contribute to that. The blue carabiner is... crowded. But appears safe enough despite the triloading. You should really have another carabiner there - especially since it isn’t a locker.

I would not rely on you as the redundancy. If it’s truly bomber, you don’t need you for redundancy. Take yourself out of the system and belay off a bight on the rope.

If I had no webbing or cordelette, and no rock pro/placements I’d have tried this (I think, hard to visualize without messing with it):

Wrap the horn. Tie an alpine butterfly for a loop on the climber side of the rope. Clip a locker to it. Clove hitch a bight from between you and the horn to that carabiner. Then use a separate carabiner and 8 on a bight to create a point to belay.

I think. This could be flawed. I’d prefer to build a couple anchors then thread the rope.