Class 4 vs 5

[pvnisher]

I know gym is not the same as outdoors, but many gym routes below 5.10 are set such that they are easily climbed in approach or tennis shoes. Personally, I don’t worry about low class 5 except for remembering to not look down.

See, now we're right into "define 'easily' "
And also I've climbed 5.10 indoors in Guide Tennies but tried in running shoes and couldn't get any edge grip.*

*although let's be honest, a better climber could do it

[SamWerner]

But my real (personal) answer would be that it's a 5 if I can't get good footholds with my running shoes. I've done class 4 and had large enough footholds to get a significant chunk of my foot on, but absent those I'd call it 5. As you can see from the thread though, it's ridiculously subjective (and apparently contentious?)

I know gym is not the same as outdoors, but many gym routes below 5.10 are set such that they are easily climbed in approach or tennis shoes. Personally, I don’t worry about low class 5 except for remembering to not look down.

I probably could have used more precise language there, but I'm referring to footholds that are big enough to hold a foot even when wet. I would imagine a 5.10 in running shoes on wet rock would be all but impossible for anyone who isn't an elite climber. I'm not including smearing or anything else that a non-climber wouldn't know (partly because I'm an absolutely terrible climber). But again, it's all subjective and some people are willing to free solo class 5 because it's easy enough for them.

[jscully205]

If you start climbing extensively you'll come to learn that all of the 5th class grades from 5.0 through 5.10 are going to be very convoluted, and after that you'll see some consistency. This is because back in the day, the highest free climbing grade used to 5.10 and everything after that was aided. This is all mixed up with new established climbing routes that have a softer rating per se. If you're on a mountaineering route it's always worth considering when the route was put up, and to an extent who put it up. On top of that also factor in the grade too, which is how long it's going to take vs. how hard it is.

Bottom line though, the difference between the grades are subjective. Low 5th and 4th class specifically, it's more psychological than anything. Character of climbing, how tall you are, is it sustained? etc. are going to determine how hard something is going to feel to you. For instance, an experienced climber might feel like some old school 5.8 route was easy to them vs some gumby epic'ing on the same line and feeling like it was sandbagged.

[daway8]

...vs some gumby epic'ing on the same line...

Lol, that's been me lately.

I can definitely see how these routes look totally different to veterans vs. rookies. I was expecting though that for experienced climbers there was a more clear cut definition that allowed for so many levels of fine distinctions. Sounds like maybe I might get a little more clarity as I climb more but that overall there's a lot of gray areas in between classes.

[SchralpTheGnar]

...vs some gumby epic'ing on the same line...

Lol, that's been me lately.

I can definitely see how these routes look totally different to veterans vs. rookies. I was expecting though that for experienced climbers there was a more clear cut definition that allowed for so many levels of fine distinctions. Sounds like maybe I might get a little more clarity as I climb more but that overall there's a lot of gray areas in between classes.

The challenge here is that it's a relative scale as ones climbing skills advance. For example, a 5.11 climber will be able to tell you when they are on a 5.12 because they can't get up it, and obsess over 11a vs 11b, but won't even think about whether they are on 4th class or 5.4. For 14er hikers that aren't technical climbers, they obsess over 3rd vs 4th class because they are cognitive of a step up in both perceived and actual difficulty. It is as if every person lives in their own world at the center of their own universe.

[disentangled]

The challenge here is that it's a relative scale as ones climbing skills advance. For example, a 5.11 climber will be able to tell you when they are on a 5.12 because they can't get up it, and obsess over 11a vs 11b, but won't even think about whether they are on 4th class or 5.4. For 14er hikers that aren't technical climbers, they obsess over 3rd vs 4th class because they are cognitive of a step up in both perceived and actual difficulty. It is as if every person lives in their own world at the center of their own universe.

this is perfectly articulated. i'm still learning class 3 and 4 and your explanation makes sense, as i know nothing beyond class 4 in my little universe.

[Flyingfish]

The challenge here is that it's a relative scale as ones climbing skills advance. For example, a 5.11 climber will be able to tell you when they are on a 5.12 because they can't get up it, and obsess over 11a vs 11b, but won't even think about whether they are on 4th class or 5.4. For 14er hikers that aren't technical climbers, they obsess over 3rd vs 4th class because they are cognitive of a step up in both perceived and actual difficulty. It is as if every person lives in their own world at the center of their own universe.

this is perfectly articulated. i'm still learning class 3 and 4 and your explanation makes sense, as i know nothing beyond class 4 in my little universe.

This is also talked about in a TR from Bergstein last year on I think Emma. For a tall experienced climber class 3 till probably 5.4 feels the same ie. easy. For a shorter/ less experienced person it maybe be easier to determine an idea of the lines since they are more relative to their skill level.

[Monster5]

I think you are collectively confusing an inability to distinguish between Class 4 and 5.4 with apathy towards the grades.

Reality is, 5.11 climber still likely has a few orders of magnitude more experience with class 3, class 4, and 5.0-5.10 than the beginner experiencing 2-move wonders on 14ers. They can readily distinguish between the two based on experience, though it doesn't particularly stress them. Actually, the lack of stress might help them rate it more objectively than the person freaking out.

-Signed, elitist who thinks the 5.2 Crestone Traverse rating is bulls**t.

[Mtnman200]

The challenge here is that it's a relative scale as ones climbing skills advance. For example, a 5.11 climber will be able to tell you when they are on a 5.12 because they can't get up it, and obsess over 11a vs 11b, but won't even think about whether they are on 4th class or 5.4. For 14er hikers that aren't technical climbers, they obsess over 3rd vs 4th class because they are cognitive of a step up in both perceived and actual difficulty. It is as if every person lives in their own world at the center of their own universe.

this is perfectly articulated. i'm still learning class 3 and 4 and your explanation makes sense, as i know nothing beyond class 4 in my little universe.

This is also talked about in a TR from Bergstein last year on I think Emma. For a tall experienced climber class 3 till probably 5.4 feels the same ie. easy. For a shorter/ less experienced person it maybe be easier to determine an idea of the lines since they are more relative to their skill level.

You’re thinking of the boulder on Whitney Peak, not Mt. Emma. My partner and I are both over 6’ and had an easier time on Whitney Peak than bergsteigen did.

[bdloftin77]

the 5.2 Crestone Traverse rating is bulls**t.

Class 4?

[FireOnTheMountain]

Now I'm just here mostly to see what Jesse M has to say.

Doesn't Cl 4 technically by definition mean terrain requiring a rope? Unsure if this has been said yet or not. also, california, but thats certainly been said many times in forums past.

Wait, I wonder what Jesse M's thinking now? has he performed the trads?

[justiner]

I think Class 4 means, "bring a rope to belay the noob that was foolish enough to follow you once they start cyrin', but that thing ain't gunna be much use protecting you leading so time to HTFU". To me that means blocky terrain that's not really a continuous face, dihedral or crack system (Class 5), but isn't just a pile of rubble with some reachy moves connected by ledge system that you can walk (Class 3). Tough to find in CO maybe? (with our lack of good granite)

When compared to the granite in the Sierra, where it seems Class 5 is easy to spot. That dome? Class 5. That blocky face? Class 4. That crap gully used to access either? That's Class 3. Class 2 is the off-trail route up and over an easy pass to the alpine lake. Class 1 is the trail they dynamited across this insane cliff band in the first part of the 20th century.

It's a really dumb system but it's what we got so whatchagunnado.

There is the idea of making an easy route harder by searching for a harder line, but what it doesn't do is get you ready to accept the additional risk of a higher grade. If things don't look good, retreat is going to feel a lot easier - easier terrain is literally all around you - just go there instead. . In a good 5.whatever pitch, the line you are on is the easiest terrain! You usually can't just bop out right or left and be on walking territory (there's exceptions to this rule as climbing is a contrived and silly activity, but hopefully my point is getting across), off-route is going to feel lots harder.

So don't get trapped in the the anti-pattern of not learning good route finding in the pursuit of a harder line to practice on. When you need to get down and it's raining or snowing or whatever unplanned event happens, you really want to be able to spot that easiest way down and sometimes the best way to do that is to know the easiest way up and the most convenient time to do that is on your way up. Good route finding equates to a faster, potentially safer trip out there.