Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Items that do not fit the categories above.
Forum rules
  • This is a mountaineering forum, so please keep your posts on-topic. Posts do not all have to be related to the 14ers but should at least be mountaineering-related.
  • Personal attacks and confrontational behavior will result in removal from the forum at the discretion of the administrators.
  • Do not use this forum to advertise, sell photos or other products or promote a commercial website.
  • Posts will be removed at the discretion of the site administrator or moderator(s), including: Troll posts, posts pushing political views or religious beliefs, and posts with the purpose of instigating conflict within the forum.
For more details, please see the Terms of Use you agreed to when joining the forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
JaredJohnson
Posts: 419
Joined: 8/27/2014
14ers: 28  5 
13ers: 13
Trip Reports (3)
 
Contact:

Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by JaredJohnson »

I've looked over a lot of forum posts about training for the mountains and there's a lot of good information but my situation and questions are unique enough I'd like to stir the pot for more opinions. I'm at the point where I'm performing "decent" in spite of being obese (245 lbs. 5'11") and in spite of living in Kansas and dealing with little acclimatization time on many trips. Right now I can summit difficult peaks safely but very slowly and only within an obvious and large weather window; I feel "pretty decent" on the summit if I've given myself a week to acclimatize. I'm not getting any younger (36) and I'd like to set some really aggressive goals in terms of both fitness and mountaineering objectives while I still have some "peak" left.

My fitness goal is to reach around 170 lbs. bodyweight in a healthy and sustainable manner. My next mountaineering goal is to complete the roach traverses, which is going to require me to summit much much faster while still feeling good at the top on a week of acclimatization. This way I can safely commit to staying at high altitudes and completing a difficult traverse. My long-term mountaineering goals include hard 14ers in winter, Rainier, Denali. I currently climb 5.8 in the gym; once my weight is lower I'd love to do intermediate multi-pitch rock routes, eventually maybe the Casual Route on the Diamond.

I've been pretty dedicated for a while which has allowed me to slowly improve my weight and fitness. I'm going to create an aggressive training plan and really dive in over the next year to execute it. I've read Training for the New Alpinism, which isn't exactly geared toward obese climbers, but has given me a lot of good ideas on how to design a plan. I've also gotten a lot of information on the Starting Strength program and am currently reading the book; my strength training so far has had an eye toward this plan although I have not by any means been committed to their plan (e.g. I don't drink a gallon of milk every day because I don't really want to gain more weight)

In order to create this more aggressive plan, I want to figure out:

1. As an obese climber, am I better off targeting faster weight loss or better overall fitness?

Weight loss is almost inevitable with an aggressive fitness plan, but a year from now, if the outcome I want is optimal speed in the mountains, do I want to be an incredibly fit 220 lbs. or a reasonably fit 170 lbs? Should I start with a climber-focused plan at the outset or start with a bodyweight-focused plan until I reach my ideal weight?

2. Given the goals I settle on in #1, what are the right balances to strike in my diet and exercise?

- aerobic vs. strength exercise
- high volume low intensity aerobic vs. HIT
- high weight low rep strength vs. low weight high rep
- low carb diet vs. balanced carb / protein / fat

My previous strategy and commitment level would eventually make me a fast and light climber, but at this rate it will take many years. I'm looking to optimize the plan as much as possible so I can accomplish some big mountaineering objectives in the next year. Within a year or two minimum I'd like to get my weight and general fitness level to the point where I can focus solely on athleticism. Any input from fitness geeks or those who have accomplished similar goals from a similar starting point (e.g. Fat) would be very welcome :)
claguire
Posts: 24
Joined: 1/10/2012
14ers: 15 
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by claguire »

Weight loss will help a bunch, think about taking a backpack off with 40 lbs in it. Your body will have less fatigue and less chance of injury. Don't neglect your diet you can loss a lot by calorie counting. Think about a piece of cake, iced coffee, an extra snack. Healthy or not they add up. 3500 calorie gets you 1 lb. I exercise daily but my poor diet leads to me gaining weight.

Your goal of climbing will keep you focused. Being from Indiana I only get to climb once a year and I tell my self I have to stay in shape! Soo..... 14ers + 14ers.com = Staying in shape for me. Thanks BIll for the site!
User avatar
Conor
Posts: 1112
Joined: 9/2/2014
14ers: 41  6  6 
13ers: 51 1 1
Trip Reports (7)
 

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by Conor »

Having personally lost over 40 lbs over the last year, I can tell what I did. Even being overweight, I was able to hike and do capitol in a day basically off the couch. That is more of a testament to my overall experience, not my fitness during that time in my life. I was wrecked after that hike for a good week.

Run low intensity, long duration. Run slow and most importantly run so you can run again tomorrow. And when you think you've had enough do some more. Totally skip the weights and "strength" training. My plan was to essentially lose the muscle mass along with my fat. I plan to build up strength in areas where I need it, but even rock climbing sparodically, I haven't ever thought I should hit the gym and build more strength in my arms. My time is coming this winter, as I am eyeing more technical routes.

Even scrambling, I haven't ever missed the strength training. I did Kelso this summer in just a shade over 3 hours and my heart rate never went over 145. I certainly believe I could break 3, but I was out for some training not to set any records.

I would urge you to not get caught up chasing "fitness." you should do the things that help you accomplish your goals, not fitness for fitness' sake.

Finally, weight loss is about creating a caloric deficit. Go to bed hungry, wake up hungry and log what you eat. The change is amazing, but it certainly isn't easy to achieve. Good luck.
User avatar
fahixson
Posts: 430
Joined: 9/11/2007
14ers: 57 
13ers: 31
Trip Reports (1)
 

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by fahixson »

While I'm no fitness expert, I've had plenty of experience in your shoes. I remember asking my mom what "husky" pants were in elementary school. My age/height/weight are pretty close to yours and I've hiked 14ers everywhere between 200-250 lbs over the past 10 years.

For me, my speed (and in some ways overall enjoyment of hiking) more closely follows my weight than fitness. Of course, fitness and weight are likely tied together too, but there have been times when I've lost weight with relatively little exercise. So, my fitness level/muscle strength might be on the low end, but I'm still faster than times when I've been exercising regularly while still on the heavier end (either because of diet choices or because I'm starting a new downward cycle). So for me, I would strive towards the reasonably fit, lighter weight. That said, different body types, exercise routines, diet, etc., may lend different results.
JaredJohnson wrote:- aerobic vs. strength exercise
- high volume low intensity aerobic vs. HIT
- high weight low rep strength vs. low weight high rep
- low carb diet vs. balanced carb / protein / fat
I can't give you much feedback on your second question. The only prong of your plan that I've spent much attention to is the diet aspect. As mentioned before, I've been able to lose a fair amount of weight (~30 lbs) with relatively little exercise. When you have plenty to lose, it's not too hard. The key for me was tracking my food and sticking within a daily/weekly target using a tool like Weight Watchers, MyFitnessPal, etc. It wasn't low carb or any specific eating plan, just making better food/drink choices to stay below the target intake (i.e., calorie deficit as Conor described).

When I did work in more exercise, it was primarily running (10 miler, half marathon training) with a limited amount of strength training to keep things interesting. I've never tried hiking/climbing specific strength training. To me that feels like overkill for CO 14ers in typical summer conditions (even for the more difficult ones or big traverses). If you're planning for more technical routes and/or winter climbs, strength training my play a bigger role in your training plans.

Just for comparison sake, when I've been at my fastest, I'm typically hiking at 1,200'-1,300'/hr vs. about 800'/hr on the upper end of my weight range (both assuming typical Class 1/2 14er trails). So, a 30-40 lb weight loss was about 50-60% increase in speed for me on comparable routes. For Class 3 and up routes, my speed tends to be a function of route finding challenges and how familiar I am with the mountain more so than fitness level.

Don't forget about the mental aspect, preparation, good partners, etc. All those variables can impact your safety and success rate as much as your weight/fitness.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!
User avatar
JaredJohnson
Posts: 419
Joined: 8/27/2014
14ers: 28  5 
13ers: 13
Trip Reports (3)
 
Contact:

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by JaredJohnson »

Thanks for the advice!

A few background metrics: I started a few years ago around 290 lbs, I'm at 245 now. In the last couple of years I've dropped 20 lbs / year, but I'd love to drop another 70 in a year or two max :) A couple years ago I did Longs in 16 hours from car to car on a week of acclimatization. I attempted it this year on one night of acclimatization; although the weather turned me around at the Narrows, I was probably on track to get it done in 13 hours. So a big improvement, but objectively still pretty slow! I also did Capitol very slowly this year; 13 hours RT from Capitol Lake. And I failed Crestone Peak this year about 3/4 up the red gully in a 16-hour RT attempt from near SCL.
Conor wrote: I would urge you to not get caught up chasing "fitness." you should do the things that help you accomplish your goals, not fitness for fitness' sake.
I definitely agree with this. I generally think of "fitness" as "ability to do a lot of aerobic work for a long time", since that's the most supportive of my goal of climbing mountains :)
Conor wrote: Finally, weight loss is about creating a caloric deficit. Go to bed hungry, wake up hungry and log what you eat. The change is amazing, but it certainly isn't easy to achieve.
The diet thing is nebulous to me. It's certainly clear nobody reaches their goals by eating whatever they want. I've managed to drop what I have so far because I'm motivated enough to say no to obviously bad food choices and say yes to hard exercise. But I've also experienced "crashing" after huge pushes for caloric deficits, my energy and motivation tanked and I wound up gaining. My doc thinks this was my body going into "starvation mode". Although my current strict diet is working for me I'm worried about what will happen when/if I increase aerobic training volumes dramatically and try to fuel it with too much or too little of this or that on the diet side.
Last edited by JaredJohnson on Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
justiner
Posts: 4396
Joined: 8/28/2010
14ers: 58  8 
13ers: 138
Trip Reports (40)
 
Contact:

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by justiner »

I would say two-prong attack - get the weight down, which will help with injury prevention when you ramp up everything else. Find something you like to do, (so you'll stick to doing it!), and be as consistent with it as possible <---- that's the big secret. Any program you take on will have rest days or whatever, that's 100% fine. TFTNA does talk about consistency, so reread those pages, and take them to heart. It's a long slow journey, stick to it.

Once you're well on your way towards your weight goal, start up with more specific exercises to your mountain goals. TFTNA will then be make more sense to you then, I guess. I'm a big Cardiovascular Fitness is King kinda guy (Run. Not Too Fast, Mostly Uphill), but again do whatever YOU think you can stick with, while being mindful to your goals. If I can point to a local dude that has a very different body type than me it's Jason Antin - he does his aerobic work, but he also does a lot of stuff at a place called the Alpine Training Center. As a new Father with a full time job, he still can get in shape to do something like Cassin Ridge. Respect!
User avatar
justiner
Posts: 4396
Joined: 8/28/2010
14ers: 58  8 
13ers: 138
Trip Reports (40)
 
Contact:

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by justiner »

All I got for diet is find the excess sugar in your diet and cut as much out as possible, while still living a sane life. Coca-cola/soda is probably a nope, as are fruit juices, beer, etc. Heed the adage, "don't drink your calories". Watch this and be scared to death.
User avatar
derekesq
Posts: 136
Joined: 12/23/2013
14ers: 29 
13ers: 9
Trip Reports (1)
 

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by derekesq »

Justiner: not to hijack the thread, but on your recent expedition, did you limit sugar in anyway or just take any calories you could b/c you would burn them right away?
Who is John Galt
User avatar
CheapCigarMan
Posts: 570
Joined: 12/10/2014
14ers: 58  2 
13ers: 108 2
Trip Reports (1)
 

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by CheapCigarMan »

I can totally relate to your condition and goals, only difference I'm 51 years old now.
I'm 6' 3" and lost 65 lbs. Originally on this journey, I lived in Wisconsin and wanted to lose because of blood pressure. Now, I maintain and continue to improve because of how my body feels and thrives by training and eating clean. And as equally important, to obtain the goals you listed.

After reading many books, articles, etc. and studying this topic of health for many years now. I have found two great resources to read. They summarize all the modern science on this subject. "Burn The Fat, Feed The Muscle" by Tom Venuto and "Evolution" by Joe Manganiello. Both are founded on science. Burn The Fat is the best resource on nutrition I have ever read. He also lays out a cardio regiment that I have personally found to produce results. Evolution is about strength, weight lifting. Many people complain about how hard it is on their knees when coming down from summits. I tell them squats is their answer. After going through Evolutions program and building your quads you'll absolutely notice the difference. Going up and coming back down.

By gleaning from both of these books you can implement their principles based on your goals. Technical climbers have different builds and regiments than someone like me, a pack mule that's looking for leg strength, cardio, and endurance.

Though, eating clean is 80% of this, gyms have been a big help to me in achieving the strength and cardio goals as well. I've been to Farrell's eXtreme Bodyshaping, UFC Gym, Gold's, YMCA, but the best in my opinion are Orange Theory and CrossFit. Orange Theory is amazing for overall conditioning and cardio. CrossFit (similar to Evolution program) is great to build the legs and intensity but for me falls short on endurance. So, if I'm doing CrossFit I'm either going twice a day or supplementing with cardio at a different time of the day.

However, after finishing my first 14'er, Quandary, with JQDivide. He told me the only way to train for 14'ers is to climb 14'ers. And his advice has proven to be absolutely true!
If nothing else, eat clean and climb 14'ers! Most people think dieting or eating clean is eating rabbit food. That's a myth and couldn't be further from the truth! Weight Watchers recipes are amazing in that they not only cover all three macronutrients (protein, fat, and carbs) in every meal, they are flavor town delicious! Biggest Loser cookbooks the same. They proved that eating clean is a delicious endeavor. Not a sacrifice.

Hope some of this proves helpful to you on your journey!
I should be on a mountain
User avatar
AnnaG22
Posts: 814
Joined: 9/16/2013
14ers: 58  7  20 
13ers: 124 3 6
Trip Reports (5)
 
Contact:

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by AnnaG22 »

How many saturated fats do you consume? (Butter, coconut oil, avocado oil, olive oil, etc). I think that folks can differ, but I find that if I try to fuel myself with mostly carbs (either during a normal work day or while hiking) I tend to be hungry more frequently and crash more easily. Some of my favorite hiking food is jerky, cheese, potato chips, nut butter, paleo bars, etc. I still intake carbs (see potato chips...as well as honey stinger gummies and fruit bars), but it's the saturated fat that helps keep me going.

I can't speak to big-number weight loss, as at my heaviest I was in the "overweight" category about 35 pounds more than my current weight. But I can say that a combination of hiking a lot and increasing the amount of saturated fat in my diet has my typical weight about 20 pounds below what it was 3 years ago. On occasions when I'm not exercising much, it drops further, I'm guessing due to muscle loss.
"The love of wilderness is more than a hunger for what is always beyond reach; it is also an expression of loyalty to the earth, the earth which bore us and sustains us, the only home we shall ever know, the only paradise we ever need – if only we had the eyes to see." -Ed Abbey

"I get scared sometimes—lots of times—but it's not bad. You know? I feel close to myself. When I'm out there at night, I feel close to my own body, I can feel my blood moving, my skin and my fingernails, everything, it's like I'm full of electricity and I'm glowing in the dark—I'm on fire almost—I'm burning away into nothing—but it doesn't matter because I know exactly who I am." from The Things They Carried
SuperiorTrailHiker
Posts: 244
Joined: 8/27/2010
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by SuperiorTrailHiker »

I have been taking a new approach to food myself and have dropped about 15 pounds over the past several weeks. I didn't change my approach to lose weight specifically, although I was 15-20 pounds heavier than I wanted to or should be. I changed it to feel better overall.

Some basic beta, I do multi-day hiking and have hiked 14ers, a little kayaking and I walk 5-7 miles a day, every day, with my active dog. Also, my favorite food group is processed carbs. Bread, pasta, chips, beer - whatever you got, I love it, and ate a lot of it. I think being generally active help the excess weight to 15-20 pounds, but overall at 50 I was just feeling foggy, mentally cloudy, tired, and kinda "inflamed" I guess is the best way to put it, and I wanted to feel better.

Listening to a podcast on one of the daily walks this summer I heard a guy named Dom D'Agostino talking about ketogenic diets. Whether he's a hack or not, I don't know, but I got interested. Googling "ketogenic" will give you as many details as you want, but it's basically a very low carb, high fat diet. 80% fat, 25% protein and 5% carbs being one ketogenic breakdown of daily food intake. Apparently, if you can achieve ketosis (producing ketones as an energy source) running on those ketones is cleaner and better for the blood/brain barrier than buckets of glucose, and the people on the 'cast kept talking about the benefits being exactly what I wanted - more energy, no cravings, mental clarity, overall sense of control and well-being.

So I tried it - man, day 3 was not easy, I woulda knocked a guy down for any kind of white bread sandwich, but after the first week, the promise of no cravings was actually true. Hunger at times, for sure, but not the GIMME GIMME carb/sugar-crash cravings for half a bag of Funyuns. More like "Yeah, time for some fuel".

I'm about six weeks in, and 10-15 pounds down, depending on if you believe my crappy scale. I can't eat enough fat to achieve actual ketosis, I don't think (I am not being very scientific about this and don't test ketone levels), so I am more like a very low carb, high fat and protein guy at the moment. Ketogenic is the guideline, but I am not very strict about the ratios and whatnot. It's easy to stick with, because I feel great. Weight loss wasn't my primary goal - I'll take it as a side effect, but again, I just wanted to feel better, and I noticeably do, which makes it easy to stay away from the beer and french fries. I'll trade those for feeling the way I do currently.

I haven't noticed any loss in strength or endurance as it stands - I am actually going farther on a daily basis now than before, am not tired, and am rarely actually hungry - I do eat a fair amount of food, to be sure, so it's not a starvation thing. It's just that if I'm hungry, I eat a pork chop instead of potato chips, and broccoli or green peas with the steak instead of fries or whatever. Olives or almonds instead of peanut M & Ms.

It's one approach, anyhow, and I am getting a lot more done now than I was stumbling around in my carb fog.
User avatar
Timothy
Posts: 149
Joined: 5/18/2015
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by Timothy »

JaredJohnson wrote:
1. As an obese climber, am I better off targeting faster weight loss or better overall fitness?

2. Given the goals I settle on in #1, what are the right balances to strike in my diet and exercise?
My take on fitness is a little bit different than others expressed here. I think staying fit is worthwhile simply because I feel so much better mentally and emotionally when my body is healthy.

Your situation is different than what I was dealing with a few years ago, but similar enough that I'd like to offer a some thoughts. For years I had been chained to a desk for 12 hours a day, one result of which was not much time for exercise and everything else. I was a few pounds heavier than optimum, but mainly just out of shape and no energy. I started riding my bicycle about ten miles round trip to work every day except when snow and ice precluded doing so. That helped tremendously-the extra pounds came off and I felt much better. I gave up the desk about five years ago and now I hike 6-8 miles three times a week plus summits about every other week in the summer/fall. My wife is kind of a nutrition freak so that part is pretty easy for me since I just eat whatever she tells me to and it seems to work out fine. Note that I haven't filled out the checklists. For me, that isn't what being in the mountains is about.

A few suggestions:

- Talk to a nutritionist/dietitian. Tell them where you are and where you want to be in terms of your health and fitness.
- Your op didn't mention your resting pulse or blood pressure. Before taking on an intensive fitness regimen you might want to talk with your doctor.
- Talk to someone who specializes in sports medicine or a fitness trainer. I would say that weight and fitness go hand in hand and that somewhere between 170 and 220 is the right overall weight and fitness level for you based on your health, age, and goals.
- How do you feel the day after a summit? Tired is one thing, but if you are completely wiped out, it could mean that you are pushing the envelope too hard for your fitness level.
- Consider your goals in climbing. Is it just a matter of reaching the summit, or is there more to climbing than just standing on a peak? Obviously that is entirely up to you, just something to think about.
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָֽד׃‎
Post Reply