On using Guides

[BethL]

There's a lot of discussion going around on recent accidents, relative mountaineering experience, and what gear is or isn't "required" (ie. ropes) for the 14ers standard routes. Plenty of heated debates and I hope I don't fuel the fire too much with one more... but I'm not finding much as far as posts dedicated to this topic. While I see some mention on forum posts about hiring guides, it's typically in the context of "if you need a guide, you're inexperienced and shouldn't be there."

Yet so many accidents are attributed to being "off route." Why not hire a guide, simply as an opportunity to have someone in your party who knows the standard route forwards and backwards due to their experience hiking it 20 times over? Several hundred dollars for a guide who knows the route seems like a small price to pay for saving you from an off-route life-ending mistake. I'm NOT recommending this as a substitute for your own research, knowledge, experience, confidence, skill level, etc., but as an opportunity for the added knowledge from someone with extensive route experience on the specific peak you intend to climb.

It seems like this is a "taboo" topic because the general assumption is "anyone can hike/climb any standard route" yet this is the same mentality that is getting so many people into trouble.

I've never hired a guide myself, but I'm curious to hear from any who have, what your goal was with hiring the guide, and your overall experience.

If you're not fortunate enough to have an amazing 14ers.com mentor who's climbed every mountain 5 times, what's so wrong with closing the knowledge gap - especially in regards to staying on route - through the help of a guide?

[Mountainmania]

I just completed the last of the 58 14'rs last weekend. I used a guide 4 times - on the most dangerous peaks. Each time it was a thoroughly wonderful experience and well worth the money. A guide allowed me to enjoy the adventure and physical challenge (the ropes are only for protection) without the worry about tough route finding and minimizes considerably the risk of a fatal fall. I have a lot of experience in the mountains of Colorado and Washington (Rainier, Hood) and read a lot about mountain safety, fitness and the analysis of accidents. All of that experience lead me to hire a guide for the ones that could kill me - they all can, but some are more risky than others. I also learned a lot from the guides about mountaineering, using ropes and other mountaineering techniques. It didn't bother me a bit that nearly everyone else on the routes didn't have a guide. Everyone is free to enjoy these beautiful mountains in the way they see fit and gauge their own risk tolerance. I don't think there is any shame in hiring a guide, and I recommend it to anyone. Being macho might really mean being stupid, depending on your experience and abilities. I have jokingly said that if what the guide charges is less than my emergency room deductible, then the price is below market!

[SoCool]

Good post BethL! Btw your checklist is looking good, going strong.

Some people say it's best to gradually advance one's skills, and some even look down on people that hire guides, but in reality it's done the world over on all types of peaks, and has been done throughout mountaineering history.

Of course, most of the 14'ers are walk-ups and there is tons of info available, but I still highly recommend having someone familiar with the route for the following: Capitol, Maroon Bells, Pyramid, and Crestone Needle. There are lots of people on this forum that will be happy to repeat these, and to team up with someone that is ready.

[Ptglhs]

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with hiring a guide. People who are disdainful of it are free to feel that way, even if I wish they would keep some of their negativity private. The internet is a dark carnival of humanity's most wretched impulses. I paid for a class on glacier travel and 2 guides for 8 people on a 6 day ascent of Mt Baker in WA last July. It included crampon and ice ax technique, glissading, roped travel, ice wall climbing, crevasse rescue, and rope and harness skills. The goal was to learn about glacier travel, winter conditions, and summit the mountain. After that I felt much more comfortable climbing and hiking Colorado in the winter (supplemented with some Avalanche classes). If I hadn't taken that course I probably would have hired guide for a winter climb, if I really wanted to do one. If I don't' take rock wall classes before I tackle some class 4 peaks, I might hire a guide for Capitol, LB, etc.

[Scott P]

I've never hired a guide myself, but I'm curious to hear from any who have, what your goal was with hiring the guide, and your overall experience.

I have been on both sides, having been a guide (two summers) and having used guides on occasion.

Here is my own perspective:

If you want to hire a guide, that's your own business and no one should disparage you for it. I wouldn't hire a guide for the 14ers, but wouldn't look down on anyone who did.

Also, almost everyone who has climbed has been guided. You may have not paid for it, but chances are you still were guided at one time or another. It may have been a parent, a friend, a mentor, or mountaineering club, but you were guided at one time. I guess my brothers and I were an exception since we learned technical stuff from some books, but that was a really dumb way to do things (using books for climbing instruction is smart, but relying on just books without going with someone experienced is not).

My perspective when being a guide

Some (luckily they are the minority) people who have never been in the mountains do some weird stuff. I had one guy I was guiding pack barbells in his backpack because he said that he needed to exercise with them (seriously). I think he was just trying to show off, but he only made it two miles up the trail before having to be sent back with someone else. Another person was abolutely terrified of squirrels since they are supposedly swimming with disease. Thank goodness we didn't run into any marmots!

Even on an easy over night backpack, some people do well and some you have to hold their hands the whole way (figuratively of course).

My perspective on using guides

I haven't used guides on that many trips, but I have on occasion. This was for multiple reasons. Here are my own reasons, but this is going to be different for everyone.

Whether or not I have used a guide usually depends on who I am with.

When my son was 5 years old, we did an 80 mile hike in the Andes and climbed to 17,400 feet. I didn't feel it wise to go with just my five year old son on a trip like that:

http://www.summitpost.org/father-and-so ... eru/378565

I did the same thing when my daughter was 9 and my son was 11. We climbed and attempted mountains around 20,000 feet. My son and daughter were pretty experienced by then, but I still didn't want to be the only adult on the trip, for safety reasons:

http://www.summitpost.org/adventures-in ... uel/894764

My son and I also used one for Mt Baker (though it was a light guided trip). By then both of us were capable and experienced enough for Mt Baker, but I feared the weight discrepancy for crevasse travel. I could easily haul my son (about 100 lbs.) out of a crevasse, but could he haul his 252 lb. dad out of a crevasse? That would be a good question, but one that I don't want to find out the hard way.

Another perhaps humorous reason my wife and I used a guide once was because we had a ridiculously large REI Dividend and couldn't spend it all. For work expenses, I literally put six figures on my REI card that year. I was always reimbursed for them, so it didn't cost me anything, but we had a huge dividend! I think it was around $5000 and we already had almost all the gear we needed. Since you can use dividends for trips, we decided to use part of the dividend on a trip so we could kick back and let someone else do the cooking and stuff for our anniversary!

It was only the north side of Mt Shasta, but ironically booking the trip may have saved my wife's life (literally). To do the trip, we had to get physicals and it was there that we learned that my wife's heart was slowly failing (it was finally fully fixed seven years later; last January). We had a planned unguided trip of the Polish Route on Aconcagua a few months after that, but the doctor told us that if she tried to climb that mountain, it may have killed her. We had no idea before getting the physical in order to go on the REI trip.

Here is the trip report:

http://www.summitpost.org/love-bombshel ... sta/698612

I also used a guide for Rainier even though I had more than enough experience to climb it. My friend wanted to climb Rainier, but had no mountaineering experience. I didn't want to take someone up Rainier that had no climbing experience up Rainier, so we signed up for a guided trip. Unfortunately, I had a conflict at work and had to cancel. We postponed a year and lost our deposit. The next year, this time my friend had to cancel. Since it was already paid for and I didn't want to lose my deposit 2 years in a row, I went anyway. My friend never did go to Rainier.

Types of guided trips

There are several types of guided trips. Most of the ones in the US (such as the one I took on Rainier and Shasta) tend to be the hold your hand and do what we say type of trips. To be honest, I just don't enjoy those type of trips much. I don't like anyone planning my itinerary, the climbing pace, and telling me when I can or can't glissade. I'm not saying that those kind of trips are bad; they aren't; but they just aren't the way I like to do things. Those kinds of trips are great for some people though. If you have a tight schedule and want someone else to do the planning for you, or if you have little experience, then those trips are for you. If you like to have more independence and make your own decisions, you may not like these trips.

Another type of guided trip is the light guided trip. I much prefer these, but as mentioned, this is only my own preference. When I did the trip to Peru with both kids, I went with a local Peruvian company. The deal was that we had them for two weeks and we would tell them what we wanted to climb and when. I really enjoyed this and it was a great cultural experience for the kids. We picked our own summits and itinerary, but they were there to haul much of the gear with the mules and to act as climbing companions. It was very enjoyable and highly recommended.

Guides

There are good and bad ones out there. I have seen some guides do some weird stuff (such as on Cotopaxi when one guide was leading a group of 12 others on a single rope). There are bad guides in the US as well (I know of one with the initials of A.P.).

Most guides are good though. They aren't rich and it's a low paying occupation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyway, the above are just some of my own opinions, experiences, and perceptions. Whether or not you use a guide is all up to you. Have fun and be safe out there!

[polar]

Some people say it's best to gradually advance one's skills, and some even look down on people that hire guides.

Yeah I don't understand this mindset at all. If you hire a guide, let them know that you want to learn instead of simply being dragged up a mountain, and you'll be able to gain some valuable knowledge. But a lot of people don't have a couple hundred dollars to spare on a guide though, I know I can't. But hire a guide if you can afford it! Many of my friends are guides, and they will appreciate the extra clients.

[AlexeyD]

If you hire a guide, let them know that you want to learn instead of simply being dragged up a mountain, and you'll be able to gain some valuable knowledge.

+1000 on all of the above. I've never been a guide or used one, but, having quite a few guide friends as well, my sister having been a guide for few seasons, and having taken something of a guide-in-training course once, this can't be stressed enough. Most guides are more than happy to act as mentors and instructors if you ask them. However, you need to make it clear that you're not Scott's Mr. Dumbells, because honestly, that is a lot of their clientele, and a lot of them will assume so until proven otherwise (with understandable reasons).

[TallGrass]

While preferred to have the skill, knowledge, gear and ability to not really need a guide, better to have a guide and not need one, than not have and need one. Many safe returns.

[Harrison]

I view guides like I view spotters in the weight room. If you're not challenging yourself (i.e. doing reps to failure, maxing out, etc.), you probably don't need one (not to say you shouldn't have one). If you are stepping out there and trying something new, or different, you need a spotter. Whether that spotter comes by way of experienced rando, friend, or guide makes no difference to me.


All of my checklist has been completed with my friends, but we're all low-altitude runners with little technical experience. I'd highly consider hiring a guide for when I want to start pushing the boundaries and working more on my skill (and hopefully snagging some summits in the process). Particularly since I only get a week of every year out in the mountains - max.

[Dave B]

There are two kinds of people: those who want to do things on their own, and those who just want to do things. It doesn't matter which one you are.

Just remember to tip your guide.

[12ersRule]

I used a guide once before, on the Y Couloir (Southwest Couloir) of Maroon peak. I had zero experience on snow climbs so it was a great experience. My guide was about half my size and he smoked, so it was very humbling seeing him kick my ass on the trail even though I'm a non-smoker. It was a great intro to snow climbing for me, and gave me confidence to try the Snowmass snowfield myself.

I'll consider using guides again when I tackle Grand Teton and Mt Rainier. Both probably are a stretch for my current skillset. I'm hoping if I ever get the time to work on the ultraprominence peaks someday, and there's a few like Mt Olympus, Mt Jefferson that I'm probably not ready for yet. Hiring a guide on Rainier should be a great learning experience for those tougher snow climbs.

[BethL]

Some people say it's best to gradually advance one's skills, and some even look down on people that hire guides, but in reality it's done the world over on all types of peaks, and has been done throughout mountaineering history.

The general assumption seems to be that a guide is needed if you don't have the skills. It's thanks to people like Mr. Dumbells who've created this stigma, but as you said, it's done all over the world. Most people attempting Everest wouldn't think twice about the need for a guide. Though Everest still attracts those unskilled and unprepared for the climb...

If you have a tight schedule and want someone else to do the planning for you, or if you have little experience, then those trips are for you. If you like to have more independence and make your own decisions, you may not like these trips.

Independence in decision making is one of my biggest hesitations with the idea of a guide. Like your example of wanting to make sure there was another adult available should you need a rescue from a crevasse, I'd have a very specific reason for wanting a guide (specific knowledge of a route or terrain, ability to assist in the event of an emergency, etc.) but I would want to have lots of control over all other aspects of my trip/climb, and not feel pressured to surrender my independence to the full direction of the guide.

If you hire a guide, let them know that you want to learn instead of simply being dragged up a mountain, and you'll be able to gain some valuable knowledge.

+1000 on all of the above. Most guides are more than happy to act as mentors and instructors if you ask them.

This is what I'd think most people who might hire a guide on the 14ers would want (assuming they have worked on building-up their own skills to the level required for the desired peak).

I just completed the last of the 58 14'rs last weekend. I used a guide 4 times - on the most dangerous peaks. Each time it was a thoroughly wonderful experience and well worth the money. A guide allowed me to enjoy the adventure and physical challenge (the ropes are only for protection) without the worry about tough route finding and minimizes considerably the risk of a fatal fall.

Congrats on finishing! Do you mind sharing who you used for a guide, or at least if you went with a specific guide service or sought out an individual? A guide for the most dangerous 14ers was my inspiration for this post. Reducing the risk of a fatal fall is an advantage many could benefit from. If guides were a little more common, it might even prevent some accidents, reduce recovery missions for the SAR teams (and save on those deductibles! )