Time for Hiking Licenses?
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- RJ_Greenhorn24
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
Up next: a $50 fee every time someone posts a summit selfie/yoga pose/meditation pic on Instagram or other social media!
"I don't think you fully understand the consequences of your pickle thievery" - Classic summit conversation
- hessma
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
DArcyS idea certainly does have merit.
The DOW provides a good comparative for this type of education/management of resources through their hunting and fishing programs.
Let's face it, the topics de jure have been dealing with the overwhelming demand on such a finite resource such as the Colorado back country and the safety and stewardship of the resources, residents, and the consumers in the Colorado back country.
The DOW requires that hunters be educated before obtaining a license and going out to hunt. People from out of state are charged extra for a license to keep them from overrunning the resources.
Not saying the DOW system is perfect, but at least there is proof that the resource management system helps to keep things balanced.
The DOW provides a good comparative for this type of education/management of resources through their hunting and fishing programs.
Let's face it, the topics de jure have been dealing with the overwhelming demand on such a finite resource such as the Colorado back country and the safety and stewardship of the resources, residents, and the consumers in the Colorado back country.
The DOW requires that hunters be educated before obtaining a license and going out to hunt. People from out of state are charged extra for a license to keep them from overrunning the resources.
Not saying the DOW system is perfect, but at least there is proof that the resource management system helps to keep things balanced.
Last edited by hessma on Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"So I say, do not discriminate what constitutes a mountain. Be happy you are in a continual pursuit of something that gives you energy in life.” —Stefan Feller
- oldschool
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
DArcyS wrote......."Lots of libertarian thinkers . . . leave me the heck alone, I get it."
Nice label! You don't even know me, know my life or political outlooks or views. My response to your post does not require your need or want ( not sure why you have this need) to put a label on my response and put me in a "column" that must make you more comfortable about "who i am". Again, not sure why.
Nice label! You don't even know me, know my life or political outlooks or views. My response to your post does not require your need or want ( not sure why you have this need) to put a label on my response and put me in a "column" that must make you more comfortable about "who i am". Again, not sure why.
"There's a feeling I get when I look to the West and my spirit is crying for leaving" Led Zeppelin
- pmccumber
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
This. Great response.
We are faced with a reality and I think we need to start managing it. 40 years ago I remember standing at the desk with my big sister getting backcountry permits in RMNP and that process sunk in on our 5 day trip over the divide and back. That experience shaped a lot of my goals for my life and RMNP provided a means for making it special.
We are faced with a reality and I think we need to start managing it. 40 years ago I remember standing at the desk with my big sister getting backcountry permits in RMNP and that process sunk in on our 5 day trip over the divide and back. That experience shaped a lot of my goals for my life and RMNP provided a means for making it special.
hessma wrote:DArcyS idea certainly does have merit.
The DOW provides a good comparative for this type of education/management of resources through their hunting and fishing programs.
Let's face it, the topics de jure have been dealing with the overwhelming demand on such a finite resource such as the Colorado back country and the safety and stewardship of the resources, residents, and the consumers in the Colorado back country.
The DOW requires that hunters be educated before obtaining a license and going out to hunt. People from out of state are charged extra for a license to keep them from overrunning the resources.
Not saying the DOW system is perfect, but at least there is proof that the resource management system helps to keep things balanced.
- LURE
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
Hunting is the best analogy, i know it was already brought up, but man what a model for responsible management for outdoor resources. I don't think we can a similar licensing thing with hiking though. Hunting makes sense to be so regulated, probably the single most regulated outdoor activity - interestingly like the only regulated outdoor activity. But it involves guns and the killing and transporting of state property.
I think the model we can take from hunting that needs to be seen in other outdoor activities is something like the Pitman-Robertson act. Outdoor gear related to hunting activities - particularly firearms and ammo - is charged a federal excise tax that then gets reallocated to the states for research, conservation, habitat management etc. I think the rest of the outdoor industries need to start doing this, mountain biking, hiking, climbing, the list is huge. That money needs to go to the forest service, SAR and so on a similar state allocation basis of use, among other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E ... ration_Act
Hunters pay back more their activity, inherently, more than any other outdoor activity I would say. And honestly, a lot of other outdoor activities benefit from it. It would be nice to see the other big activities start having similar systems. Granted, the hunting pay back model is more inherent in such a regulated activity that needs such regulation. Nonetheless, food for though.
I think the model we can take from hunting that needs to be seen in other outdoor activities is something like the Pitman-Robertson act. Outdoor gear related to hunting activities - particularly firearms and ammo - is charged a federal excise tax that then gets reallocated to the states for research, conservation, habitat management etc. I think the rest of the outdoor industries need to start doing this, mountain biking, hiking, climbing, the list is huge. That money needs to go to the forest service, SAR and so on a similar state allocation basis of use, among other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E ... ration_Act
Hunters pay back more their activity, inherently, more than any other outdoor activity I would say. And honestly, a lot of other outdoor activities benefit from it. It would be nice to see the other big activities start having similar systems. Granted, the hunting pay back model is more inherent in such a regulated activity that needs such regulation. Nonetheless, food for though.
Last edited by LURE on Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
- painless4u2
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
Pure Deep State type thinking. Regulate it, tax it and control it, without regard to knowing if such actions help. The reasoning of "Well, if it just keeps one person safe then it is a success" is nonsense. By the way, most of the recent accidents have involved experienced climbers. No amount of taxing and regulating will prevent a slip or a loose rock. NO WAY.
Bad decisions often make good stories.
IPAs + Ambien = "14ers" post (Bill M.)
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 16:9
IPAs + Ambien = "14ers" post (Bill M.)
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 16:9
- claytid
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
We could always look at other areas that permit (Rainier, Denali NP, St. Helens) and see what kind of effect it's had there.painless4u2 wrote:Pure Deep State type thinking. Regulate it, tax it and control it, without regard to knowing if such actions help.
- painless4u2
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
Those permits do nothing to "prevent bad stuff from happening" or to "educate". They serve only to regulate the number of visitors and know who is on the mountain in case they don't return. Mt. Whitney also requires a permit but does nothing toward the goals envisioned by the OP.claytid wrote:We could always look at other areas that permit (Rainier, Denali NP, St. Helens) and see what kind of effect it's had there.
Bad decisions often make good stories.
IPAs + Ambien = "14ers" post (Bill M.)
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 16:9
IPAs + Ambien = "14ers" post (Bill M.)
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 16:9
- hessma
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
I get the anti-bureaucracy thing, but a free for all in the back country also has a growing downside.painless4u2 wrote:Pure Deep State type thinking. Regulate it, tax it and control it, without regard to knowing if such actions help. The reasoning of "Well, if it just keeps one person safe then it is a success" is nonsense. By the way, most of the recent accidents have involved experienced climbers. No amount of taxing and regulating will prevent a slip or a loose rock. NO yWAY.
Most of my neighbors are scared to death of being burned to the ground during the dry season. I drove down Lost Park road in June during a fire ban and every camp site had a fire going. Three hours later we were evacuated because of a wildfire caused by someone shooting exploding targets.
The DOW system of education and licensing doesn't prevent all accidents or illegal activity, but it does help to promote a better culture in that outdoor community.
It also, as Lure pointed out, provides funding for activities such as law enforcement, SAR, conservation, etc... All things that are needed from what I have seen.
"So I say, do not discriminate what constitutes a mountain. Be happy you are in a continual pursuit of something that gives you energy in life.” —Stefan Feller
- dstelk
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
This is, without a doubt, the stupidest idea I've ever heard. It hurts my brain to think that anybody would think this is a good idea. A license to walk through the woods!!?? Good God! Just when my faith in humanity can't get any lower, I see this. Thanks for that!
For the record, the recent incidents to which you likely refer have been experienced individuals. It's reasonable to assume that they all would have passed your ridiculous online litmus test. Unless you know of some technology that I'm not aware of, those magic car stickers wouldn't do much to help somebody who's hold just gave way that is then falling to their death.
What happens when accidents continue to happen after your proposed program is instituted (because they will)? More regulation? Mandatory helmets when on nature walks? Guides and ropes on anything above class 2 required? Subarus with Free Tibet and Coexist stickers required for passage onto all TH access roads.....not interfering with your magic nature walking license stickers, of course! You can't regulate against gravity, physics, bad luck, or poor decision making.
#dumbestideaever #sorrynotsorry #ientertainmyself
For the record, the recent incidents to which you likely refer have been experienced individuals. It's reasonable to assume that they all would have passed your ridiculous online litmus test. Unless you know of some technology that I'm not aware of, those magic car stickers wouldn't do much to help somebody who's hold just gave way that is then falling to their death.
What happens when accidents continue to happen after your proposed program is instituted (because they will)? More regulation? Mandatory helmets when on nature walks? Guides and ropes on anything above class 2 required? Subarus with Free Tibet and Coexist stickers required for passage onto all TH access roads.....not interfering with your magic nature walking license stickers, of course! You can't regulate against gravity, physics, bad luck, or poor decision making.
#dumbestideaever #sorrynotsorry #ientertainmyself
I saw this wino eating grapes, and I was like, "Dude.....you have to wait!" ~ Mitch Hedberg
- LURE
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
I agree, a license to walk in the woods won't solve the issue. But like most things that require some regulation, the ideal point of some regulation is to protect other people from the effects of people activities and mistakes. Driving licenses and insurance wasn't much of a thing until so many people were driving that they started killing other people with cars and accruing damages on other people property at an alarming rate. If you kill yourself in your car or damage your own property tough beans, its other people that is the issue. The volume of hikers in the woods is taking a larger toll on the environment and especially a larger toll on SAR and forest service officials and sheriff departments. Permit systems to ease up the volumes can help in some areas, but largely, I would argue there needs to be a better system of funding return for these activities to help mitigate the monetary costs it takes to continue to allow people to do these things.dstelk wrote:This is, without a doubt, the stupidest idea I've ever heard. It hurts my brain to think that anybody would think this is a good idea. A license to walk through the woods!!?? Good God! Just when my faith in humanity can't get any lower, I see this. Thanks for that!
For the record, the recent incidents to which you likely refer have been experienced individuals. It's reasonable to assume that they all would have passed your ridiculous online litmus test. Unless you know of some technology that I'm not aware of, those magic car stickers wouldn't do much to help somebody who's hold just gave way that is then falling to their death.
What happens when accidents continue to happen after your proposed program is instituted (because they will)? More regulation? Mandatory helmets when on nature walks? Guides and ropes on anything above class 2 required? Subarus with Free Tibet and Coexist stickers required for passage onto all TH access roads.....not interfering with your magic nature walking license stickers, of course! You can't regulate against gravity, physics, bad luck, or poor decision making.
#dumbestideaever #sorrynotsorry #ientertainmyself
- douglas
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Re: Time for Hiking Licenses?
So...only the driver of the car with the license plates has to pass the test? Is anyone else allowed in the car to the trailhead or would we put stickers on their foreheads to clear them? Truly stupid.