Vapor barrier socks

[steadman26]

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with vapor barrier socks. Do they really keep the inside of your boots from getting soaked with sweat during the winter?

[newnative]

One of my climbing partners, a very experienced climber, uses them in the winter and says they work really well. I'll ask him to chime in...

[TomPierce]

Hey steadman: I've been using VBL's for years and always use them for really cold outings. In no particular order, here's what I've found:

1) They are particularly useful for a person who tends to perspire a lot into his/her socks, and/or for super cold conditions. If your socks rarely get damp in the winter, or if you tend to go out only on the "warm" winter days (where the air temp is, say, 5 degrees or better? Just an arbitrary threshold...) then VBL's may be unnecessary.

2) Use: You slip the VBL sock over a bare foot or, I think more commonly, over a thin liner sock then put your insulating sock over that. The theory is that once your skin reaches a certain point of saturation your body's perspiration mechanism stops producing moisture. That seems to be the case, because when I use them my liners are damp, not soaked. Not even close. But my insulating sock is bone dry, and a dry sock will theoretically keep you toastier longer.

3) A few caveats: You must use them with really good insulation. With only a VBL,a liner and a light boot you risk worse damage (frostbite) than with no VBL at all (trust me on this... I have personal experience ). And again, if you never get cold feet then you're lucky and are doing something right. But VBL's have been around a long time and IMO are the way to go for either a loooong winter day, esp. if there's some standing around where you're not generating heat (e.g. during a technical section), or where it's a multi-day/overnight thing and the thought of putting on damp boots or liners in the morning makes you want to wretch.

4) As for gear, I use thin Injinji merino wool liner socks. They have individual toes on the socks and I like 'em because I'm not keen on that damp feeling in between the toes I'd get with a VBL and a standard liner sock. I then use Integral Designs VBL's although there are others out there. My insulating socks, fwiw, are either (depending on the air temp & boot) Dahlgren Expedition Alpaca Socks [best thinner winter sock, they fit my snugger La Sportiva Baturas well], or Smartwool Mountaineering Socks [an OK mid thick sock, good with a slightly looser boot] or Climb High Himalayan Socks [hands down the best winter sock made, but I save those for the -20 days].

As always, solely my opinions. Hope that helps.
-Tom

[steadman26]

Thanks Tom Pierce that was some good info

[TomPierce]

No problemo, don't freeze yer toes off

-Tom

[England]

You can use bread bags, and save yourself some money. I'm not kidding. I've got a couple of ice climbing partners that use bread bags with no problems.

[Duffus Kentucky Climber]

Tom:
Your answer to the question in this topic is what this forum is all about. Good post!
dkc

[RoanMtnMan]

I then use Integral Designs VBL's although there are others out there.

Tom,

How durable are those Integral's? I tested a pair several years ago and tore them to shreds. I understand they have made many changes to address this issue. What is your experience? I have since been tinkering with Gator Gear, Sierus, and SealSkinz. All of which have their pluses and minuses.

Thanks,

Caleb

[TomPierce]

Hey Caleb:

I've used the Integrals for, hmmm....2-3 seasons now and the old Black Diamonds (which are near identical) before that. As you may know they're just nylon socks and hence very thin, with a treated inside layer to create the vapor barrier. As far as wear and tear I've seen none, no tears or holes, but the sizing of mine is such that there's a wee bit of extra room for my foot, i.e. it's not pulled taut on my foot and maybe that prevents some wear & tear. But I have a sneaking suspicion that with all the rubbing the liner coating has to wear out eventually which would decrease the effectiveness of the vapor barrier. That's just my suspicion, I've seen nothing on that. FWIW, the other two brands I looked at online were the RBH and the Stephenson Warmlite. The RBH seemed thicker than just coated nylon, and as I recall both had no seal on top (the Integral has a drawstring). But they may be more durable than the Integrals?

I too have tinkered with other ideas (neoprene socks, spray on deodorant, etc.) over the years and didn't care for them (some socks were too thick, some ineffective and some breathed and did not create a sufficient barrier). I find the VBL's work well enough for me but they're not perfect, I still get cold toes on occasion, but they're pretty simple to use and they absolutely keep my outer socks dry. Anyway, hope that helps.

England: Yep, I had a buddy that did the bread sack thing on Denali. They do work, but he said he trashed them almost daily and once they tear the barrier is obviously gone. But yeah, a possible low cost option.

-Tom

[Weegie5]

I experimented several times last year with Subway sandwich bags (which tore every single time) before I broke down and bought a pair of RBH Designs VaprTherm Liner Socks. My feet (and hands) get cold really easily, so even at 10°, I was glad to have them. I used them on a winter trip up Princeton and a spring ascent of Sherman and love 'em.

[globreal]

Funny I'm reading this thread today as just this morning I was trying on the newspaper "baggie." Has anyone tried that? It seems like a much stronger "plastic" material than the Subway bags.

[Dancesatmoonrise]

Walmart produce bags are my VBL of choice. (hehe...)

Seriously, they are like 2 grams each. So I always have them for emergency use.

I bike ride all winter and can attest to the +10-15 degrees they add to whatever socks you're wearing.

They do tend to tear, but still work if torn. For multiday winter trekking, one would want to take several pairs. Still only 1/2 oz for a few pairs of produce bags.

Make sure the fit is not binding. Must be relatively loose. I use two pairs of socks with the VBL between -- as mentioned above, a light sock under, a heavier sock over. You can also add another VBL (produce bag) over the top of the heavy sock if desired.

Super light, no cost, no weight, takes up no space. : )

[Canadian_bass]

Regarding the plastic bag route, I remembered this from the Adirondack Mountain Club's winter school website (they require VBLs):

http://www.winterschool.org/faqs.html#9

Q: What are vapor barrier liner (VBL) socks and do I need them?
A: VBL socks are critical to keep your insulating socks and boot liners dry. They are required for all overnight backpacking sections and strongly recommended for the dayhike section. The VBL sock is worn over a thin synthetic or silk liner sock and under an insulating sock. The liner sock gets wet from your perspiration, but when done properly the insulating sock and boot liner remain bone-dry even after several days of use. The easiest, most effective VBL socks are simply heavy-duty plastic bags. You need to use two bags for each foot (one bag used alone will break) and bring extra bags for each day. You can find suitable bags online (e.g., 5 x 4 x 24 inch bags (Item number UF10G054024) from foodservicedirect.com). At the end of the day you will need to remove your liner sock and get you foot into a dry sock to avoid trench foot. The liner sock will either need to be dried or replaced with a fresh one for the next day. Note that waterproof breathable socks or neoprene booties ARE NOT acceptable since water vapor will pass though and get your insulating layers wet, defeating the purpose of VBL socks.

[tenpins]

word on the produce bags or the bread bags.

[RoanMtnMan]

Hey Caleb:

But I have a sneaking suspicion that with all the rubbing the liner coating has to wear out eventually which would decrease the effectiveness of the vapor barrier.

-Tom

Tom,

This is exactly what happened when I tested these over four or five weekend trips in the Sierras. The waterproof coating delaminated from the nylon sock. I thought that it was a sizing issue but then my wife's did the same thing a few trips later. I have heard that they resolved this issue and that seems true in your case. How many days do you have on yours?