Advice on Down Bags? A note to Big Agnes

[dubsho3000]

I stopped reading when I read:

An open letter to Big Agnes:

With its tags still on it I'm tempted to return it to REI before any more time expires.

.[/color][/b][/i]

Dude- it's REI - Return Everything Indefinitely. No time constraints. No reasonableness check. Policy = Dont' ask, don't tell.

[1st14erAt50]

Big Agnes makes great products! They have re-written the book on ultralight tents and have most sensibly re-designed the sleeping bag system. Just now they are building warm, wind-worthy tents.

The reason Big Agnes folks remember me is because I purchased bags from them twice and have spoken to them since. In 06 I received the Storm 0 ($230)to learn from a -12 degree experience in my yard (my down coat on plus more clothes, balaclava) that it was no bag built for the cold. In fact, a +25 would be more appropriate. At most, there is 2.5" of insulation above me. Very cold. I spoke with them about the loft issue with this bag and the gentleman at the time, "Bill", said to send it in to be examined. I did and the bag was returned with the note that it checked out. I then called to discuss options and they suggested an "overbag" ($160)so purchased it, too. Since then I've carried unnecessary bulk and weight not to mention more than one pad too.

My point here is that in the past I've made this and other very expensive gear mistakes and failed to recognize the mistake early enough to do something about it.

I started climbing the 14ers at age 50. The more I do the more passion I have for it. As for gear bought, I was in denial of my first impressions of the wrong tents, packs, or bags and excitedly went out to enjoy them. Being naive, I was very proud of myself. No mentor. No wisdom. Later, to my dismay I became unhapppy with the weight and bulk of what I'd bought and would end up selling the gear on eBay to the highest bidder, very glad to be rid of it and then try again. Yes, I'd always use the gear many times--for one to five years when I'd finally wake up to the fact that what I bought was too heavy and bulky. In the case with tents, I owned two Biblers, ($600 and $800) one weighing 10# (the specs say 8.6 lbs). With ground cloth, stuff bag and stakes I carried over 10 lbs on my back and filled my backpack with it bulk. On top of that I owned an Osprey Crsecent 90 ($376) pack that also weighed 10 lbs, though the specs stated otherwise. Then, in it I packed a 1996 -15 Cabelas Hollofill II bag that weighed 6.7 lbs. That was all my Osprey pack's bag compartment could stand. I carried all but the kitchen sink although I was looking to put that in too.

In the end, I used to consistently carry 60 to 65 lbs of weight--not knowing any better. I'm 57 years old and have learned hard lessons when it comes to gear and surviving the outdoors using it. I now carry 35 to 45 lbs but need to lighten up still. I resolved my tent and pack issues just fine. Researched extensively before purchasing. No regrets there. The bag is my last weight and bulk issue left to resolve. When you trust the manufacturer--any manufacturer--for what they want you to believe, you're going to make the mistakes I did. Not at all wise.

When I look at the stock photo from Agnes of the Hahn's Peak bag with its apparent hump in the center and then viewed my bag laying on the floor with its sunken depression in it, I wasn't too excited to accept its $530 or more price that was attached. It makes me wonder who at Big Agnes even tests these bags for temp ratings. I would guess no one. Certainly not the one speaking to me on the phone or through email or they would reflect upon their own outdoor experience and personal comfort level using the gear in the worst of conditions that they attempt to sell to me. The salesman is typing and speaking from a heated office being paid to defend his product and make sales. Where is the honesty in his comments to me? Where is the concern for customer needs?

Case in Point of their apparent rating conflict: The Hoit has 18% more insulation in a bag of 9% less surface area-- A very nice mummy and very well designed. I love the Hahns Peak and the Hoit. I also love its mummy two-track 2" pad with its own sleeve to put it into and its pillow sleeve as well. I really value this design! Why don't all manufacturers do this? The Hoit and the Hahns are the same bag. But to the point, where is the study and logic of why both are called "zero"-temp rated?? What is the basis for what the ratings are? There would be no comparison in the difference in warmth: The Hoit would prove to be far warmer and is still called a zero bag alongside the Strom 0. What's up?

If for 75% of the time I find a bag warm to sleep in and the other 25% I sleep cold at temps the bag is rated at, then why didn't I pick a warmer bag? Even the -20 bag that I thought would probably work at 0—won’t. A woman at Big Agnes told me last week that the rating has to do with "survival"--not comfort. In contrast, Western Mountaineering says they (built in good old USA) put a cold-sleeping person into a bag and test it to the coldest temp he can be "comfortable" in. That temp becomes the rating for that bag. I have never read of a bag manufacturer advertising a bag for "your survival". Nor have I read reviews referring to "great survival value" or Backpacker magazine discussing "survival" ratings in bags.

Two years ago I did an extensive study of 19 zero bags to compare three concerns when purchasing: 1. Cost per 10000 cu in of insulation (regardless of down power); 2. most insulation to the least; and 3rd, ratio of insulation (warmth) to weight. My Storm rates in the lower 40% of the chart as far as cost. Not so expensive to buy. However, it rates dead last in the other two charts. Yes, I compare "apples to apples": I multiply ozs of down by its fill power to compare cu in of insulation only. The top three winners for Cost per 10000 cu in of down? Coleman XOL Mummy; Kelty Light Year 0; Marmot Coulior. Most insulation: Marmot Courlior, Wes Mtn Kokiak, Intergral Designs SPD 1 Rockies 0. Best insulation to weight ratios: Wes Mtn Kodiak Super MF; Marmot Lithium 0, GoLite Adrenaline 0.

(Incidentally, to help avoid yet another gear mistake, I did a similar study with 43 two-man tent styles of many manufacturers. On one page it makes for a quick study and an easy purchasing decision for me.)


[color=#008000]There. I hope that explains where I'm coming from in deciding how to purchase gear. The "point" is that when I research what to buy I do my homework and take my time. I do look to 14ers.com to ask advice as well. Very important to know how real climbers' gear stands up to the harsh conditions of camping and climbing year-around. In this case, I wasn't clear enough to you climbers that I was looking for feedback on what works and what doesn't. Thus, I have to use my own research and judgment. Am not knocking Big Agnes in any way. They can claim great merit for the quality products and unique designs, light and strong textiles that they have created. However, for my money in down bags--I sincerely believe I can do better. You see, one downside to Big Agnes down is that it is harvested from Asian goose farms where the geese are not allowed to live as long before their down is harvested. The better down is European where the better down comes from the older geese. Too bad, too. I really like their design but not the loft provided.[/color]

[DWRich]

Milt,

I've read this thread intently since its inception, and I've sincerely been trying to see this from your angle. I'm pretty much an over-researcher myself; and it's apparent that you've done a lot of research on this, for which I have the utmost respect. The thing that I'm missing, still, is where you cite how this bag has performed while you were out in 0 degree temperatures. For me, I probably spend more than I need to when I buy a lot of my gear, but that's why I buy it from REI. I research it, make an informed purchase, then test it out; if I don't like it, I take it back to REI and try another item (albeit, again, well-researched).

I have a Marmot -15 degree bag that I got from REI. It works great. Try that one.

Best of luck.

DWR

[newnative]

Wow Milt, I gotta be real honest with you, and I mean absolutely ZERO disrespect... I don't spend nearly the time that you do on my gear decisions. And I'd like to say that I've never had to sell something I've bought on EBay because I was so unhappy with it. Doesn't make me right and you wrong, but the mountains for me are just a labor of love, and a labor of love isn't really about LABOR. That's what work is for... I go to the mountains to get away from all that. I use spreadsheets at work, I can say I've never used one in the mountains, or anything related to them. I just go out and have fun; if I'm cold one night then, oh well, I add a layer, but that's just me. Then again, I've never spent $530.00 on a sleeping bag and never will.

I wish you luck in your endeavors man, I really do, but we approach mountaineering (or even just plain hiking) in two very different ways and that's cool. I would like to say however, that I still believe your original post was made under false pretenses and your last post has simply reinforced that with me. You're calling out BA at every chance you can get, you never wanted our advice, period. You're just trying to make them look bad. You don't work for Western Mountaineering do you? LOL... Again, good luck with your backcountry experiences, just enjoy the mountains... Take care and be safe.

[coloradokevin]

In contrast, Western Mountaineering says they (built in good old USA) put a cold-sleeping person into a bag and test it to the coldest temp he can be "comfortable" in. That temp becomes the rating for that bag. I have never read of a bag manufacturer advertising a bag for "your survival". Nor have I read reviews referring to "great survival value" or Backpacker magazine discussing "survival" ratings in bags.

Well, here's my $0.02:

You seem to be sold on the Western Mountaineering line of sleeping bags, and I wouldn't fault you in the least little bit if that is the case.

As far as I'm concerned, WM is in a class nearly by itself, and their bags are beyond what you can expect to find from the majority of the other big names (Mountain Hardwear, North Face, Sierra Designs, Marmot, etc). I have used bags from all of the other names that I've listed, and still use a 0F degree NF bag on a lot of trips. But, the three WM bags I've had have been of a much higher quality, at least in my opinion. Feathered Friends seems to share the top spot with WM, but I've never used one of their bags myself, so I can't honestly comment on their quality.

Although I used to work at a store that sold Western Mountaineering bags, I couldn't honestly tell you how they determine their temperature ratings. Nevertheless, I would believe the statement you said about the company putting a cold person in a bag and finding out how cold it can be while keeping that individual comfortable... I'm not a hot sleeper myself, but I tend to be on the warm side. I have been able to push my WM bags well beyond their "comfort rating" on a number of trips, and have no doubt that their ratings are on the conservative side.

As I mentioned before, I'm not going to try to speak of Big Agnes bags specifically, if only because I've never actually used one!

Hearing you speak of your previous gear blunders (don't worry, we've all had them), I do feel the need to ask you about a few other factors that could impact your sleeping bag performance:

1) Are you sleeping in dry clothing, or clothes that you've hiked and sweated in?

2) Did you change out of the socks you hiked in?

3) Are you picking sleeping bags with enough room for you, but also making sure that you don't buy a bag that has too much free space?

4) Have you tried throwing a hot water bottle in the bag with you (There's nothing like cuddling with a Nalgene bottle full of boiled water to keep you warm when you try to push a bag well beyond its design limitations)?

5) Do you cinch down the draft baffles near your neck, and/or does your bag even have a draft collar (historically, it seems that these don't appear on bags from most manufacturers until you get closer to the 0F mark)? In truly brutal conditions, without a properly adjusted draft collar, I've found that if you move around much in a bag, you'll probably start to feel the cold a lot.

6) Do you cinch the mummy hood tight, or alternatively wear a hat to bed? (personally, I don't like being shrink wrapped in my bag, and usually just wear a hat when it falls below about 15F. If it gets REALLY cold I'll cinch things down, but normally I prefer some head space)

7) Is the sleeping pad that you are using suitable for your intended use? I believe you mentioned using an integrated sleeping pad, so I'll assume that it was probably matched appropriately to the conditions you were expecting to encounter. If not, you can lose a LOT of heat to the ground on cold winter days!

Then again, I've never spent $530.00 on a sleeping bag and never will.

I used to say that myself. My first WM bag was a pro-deal, so I did keep that promise to myself for quite a few years! My North Face down bag only cost me about $290, and that was maybe 12 years ago or so. But, if I had to start over again now, knowing the amount of use that I'll get out of a sleeping bag, I wouldn't hesitate to plop down $600+ on a quality bag. Sleeping warm and comfortably for hundreds of nights in the wilderness is worth paying a premium price, at least in my mind. Everyone has different gear needs, so I certainly wouldn't tell someone that they had made a bad decision by buying a more economical bag either!

[merlin]

Why would you carry that much weight? What's in your pack? I go well prepared for technical alpine routes, with bivy gear and all at under 30lbs including climbing gear. Unless I'm winter camping my winter pack weighs in at about half of what yours does. I managed about 25 lbs including fuel, extra clothes, bivy, gear and all for a 40 mile, 1 day, sub zero ski last year and could have survived quite comfortably in much worse conditions. My only gear change after that trip was to have a pair of mittens as a n emergency back up to my two sets of gloves.

Not to sound harsh but you are going to wreck your body given your age if you carry that much. If you want longer term enjoyment out of the high country pare that pack weight down. Unless you are doing high altitude stuff or carrying for the family there is no reason to carry that much gear unless you can't afford to buy the better stuff. My own experience is that pack weight tends to be inversely proportional to experience.

Edited to add- I'm emailing a friend of mine who is another compulsive researcher and am going to ask him to send me his spreadsheet on what he carries. I know he has a very survivable multi day set up that weighs in under 30lbs, he's in his early 50s and watches his knees. He's got money so his get up might be pricey. I'll email it to you if you pm me an address to send it to.

[1st14erAt50]

I just finished with responses to DWRich, newnative, coloradokevin, and Merlin. Took some time about too but once I went to "review", not for very long either! it said it timed out and ZIP--it dissappeared! That teaches me to first write comments on Word first and then save it, copy and paste. No worries. I'll try another night. Too late now, guys. Very sorry!!

[lazy climber]

I am impressed with the amount of research and "testing" you did with the sleeping bag, I am also impressed with BA, most companies would have blown you off, I have recieced very good responses from BD but thats it.

Asking for advice about gear on a web site like this insures you will get a different answer for each person replying, which means you have to sort through a bazillion opinions and you may or may not have learned anything, all you will have learned is what works, or not, for each person replying.

There are a few items of gear that are very personal and what you choose depends a lot on YOU, not what everybody else says.

Sleeping bags are one of those personel things, a lot depends on what you are going to use it for and what your comfort level is, some of us sleep hotter or colder than others, so a zero bag may be warm for me but cold for you.

The manufactures stats are just guidelines, physical measurements give a good idea of if you wil fit or not and loft and temp ratings are just ball park figures. A Marmot zero bag will be different than a REI zero bag in weight and loft and may have the same measurements but the cut can be different so you may fit one better than the other, which also influences how warm or cold you are.

It is a little late now, but you were asking for advice so here goes.

Find a bag that fits your requirements, buy a good brand (this too is a personel thing, I dislike NF but others love the brand) from a reputable store, REI takes everything back, get the bag and see if you fit. Do you like a bit of room in the bag or a tighter fit, once you have decided the fit is good you need to try it out, just because it may look "thin" in places does not mean it will not preform as needed. This is where buying at REI kicks in, if you use it a few times and if it is not doing what it is supposed to do, take it back.

Sleeping bags are high $$$ items so you want to get it right the first time if possible, however they are also one of those things that the only way to truely figure out if it will work for you (measureing and stats will not tell you what you REALLY want to know) is to try it out in the conditions you bought it for, which means you are stuck with the thing if it does not work well...unless you got it at REI.

[delbo]

To much information can be as bad as no information as far as spec measurements just pull and lift to get what you want and at -20 you probably will not fill like your in a oven but without trying it out your complaints are all null and void .

[uwe]

My gear:
Montbell - I have 30 and 0 degree Super Stretch down bags. Use bivy Gortex outer liner and silk inner liner.
Super light, and very toasty. Used 30 degree bag on Rainier, and 0 degree bag on Aconcagua. No disappointments.

[1st14erAt50]

This time I didn’t lose what I wrote! Thanks everyone for you input. It’s been fun!

To DWRich
Sounds like you found a winner with Marmot! They now make the -20 Col EQ with 38 oz of 800+ down at 4 ¼ lbs; $619.00. I was looking at the Couloir with its 34 oz of 800DN.
Checked in with the Mountain Chalet in Colo Sps with measuring tape in hand. When I measured the Kodiak for loft I found 4” of loft above and 3” below. They advertise 7” of loft. Feathered Friends speaks of the same loft with its Ibis 0. For -10 they both speak of 8” and for -25 they speak of 9” of loft. I have no reason to doubt them. The WesMtng Kodiak checked out. So if insulation of the Storm is cold for me, cold at -12 with 2.5” of loft and the -20 bag measures only 3”, can’t I assume it is over-rated? My own experience accounts for something. I used to own the Mtn Hrdwr Phantom 0, an outstanding bag for loft, compressibility and warmth I thought. Just too tight for my girth.

The extra inch of loft over the -20 bag 3”. In fact, it is silly assume 3” of anything can keep you warm in -20. Have never heard of anyone sleeping in -20 anyway. Extra inches is worth a lot when outside the tent it is -12 and inside is 8 degrees where the bag needs to be performing for you. That was my night—in my yard—trying out the Storm 2.5” system. You say your -15 Marmot is comfortable at that temp-- then what does its loft measure?? Go from your own experience to draw that conclusion. I’d bet it is close to 5 to 6”. One doesn’t need to try out a bag in -20 weather to figure it out—not once he’s had experience with several bags otherwise. Personally, I place the Storm with 2.5” of loft to perform well for me at +20 or +25 and the one with 3” to perform well at +10. Wouldn’t you? It’s just too heavy and bulky for that functional temp. Since Agnes’ bags use no down on the bottom 25% of the bag, then it would stand to reason that the loft should be higher, not less than that of its competitors but. Where are the other Agnes bag owners on this forum?? I want to hear from them. Got a Hoit or a Hahns Pk?

To newnative
As far as studying gear and making charts, it is escape for me. Three and two years ago I did this with boots (14 A a short and quick study!), bags, tents, and backpacks. I’ve made my purchases based on the charts I made and have no regrets. I also read books of mountaineering conquests, the real-life kind, and about other outdoor historical adventures. When I can’t get out as often as I’d like, this makes for a real good escape for me—not the “work” that you’re used to. It is a labor of love. You see, I pulled the plug on the TV, dish or otherwise, in Feb 03 and haven’t missed it as all for several reasons. In addition, I don’t drink or smoke or socialize much—I work too much. It is certainly my loss but I don’t enjoy following games—never been a spectator of any kind. My life is my work, a spiritual life and this hobby.
Newnative, what is your experience and with what bag with what loft? In your investments into Big Agnes bags and pads have you got your money’s worth? Will you also plunk down $530 for another Agnes bag plus another $101 for its pad and be happy with your $650 investment in cold sleeping gear from them? It sounds like you will never put down much on a bag but have reason to believe one bag out there is worth someone else’s money--but not yours.
Yes I call Agnes out! Where is the 24800 cu in. of insulation that they claim to be on the top 75% of their $530 bag? It’s simply not apparent. I don’t need to try out a 3” loft in -20 conditions . It would be silly. Agnes is telling us what the temp rating is when in fact they have no clue. One of their bags is built considerably warmer than another but they are both called 0? Why? How?

To coloradokevin
1. I do sleep in the same clothing but in winter bring long-johns but sleep in the same socks or just take them off.
2. My feet usually warm up fine in most conditions anyway. It’s my fingers that always turn to wood. They were frost-bitten long ago. I use the Alti Mits! From OR. Still not warm enough.
3. The two agnes bags I own are a bit too spacious for sure. They are 73” x 69 x 55”. Mummy shape plus some stretch and compression would be good to move are out.
4. Yes. I began doing that in spring 06. I like that. Eating peanuts and using that idea is good to start out warm.
5. No. I don’t cinch down the draft collar of the Storm. Am not sure I know how.
6. I wear a balaclava for the cold and an insulated face mask for warmer nights out. If my nose starts to get cold—I wake up. In addition, once I put my inflatable pillow inside the Agnes pillow holder (clever) I then put a soft pillow on top. By then the hood is useless. I am comfortable to just hunker down into the top of the bag. I works.
7. For the cold, I put the Yampa 40 into the Storm 0 with a Walmart closed-cell pad and then put an 1 1/2 inch “two-track” Big Agnes pad into the Storm. I sleep on top of the Yampa until several hours later when I get chilled and slip into it as well. It contains another 9 oz of 650-fill down to help with effort. It’s a warm system.

To merlin
If you tell me how to add an attachment to this website then I can show you lists of gear packed four different ways. This site accepts no excel, jpeg or pdf files. I have no clue. In fact, I don’t even know how to upload a photo of less pixels so that the website can accept the photo. Oh well. As I said, in my earlier days I’d pack 60 to 65 lbs and now in summer 35 lbs. In winter about 45 lbs.
Summer
Pick 1.2
Mtn hardware down coat 1.7
Two headlamps .4
Cook gear 2.7
Rain pants and jacket 1.7
First aid, pills, sunscreen, lotion .5
80 oz water 4.6
Warm gloves or mittens .4
GPS Rino .6
Food 3
2 meter ham radio with directional antenna 1.7
Summer sleep system 5.6
Steripen .25
Poles 1.3
Pack Gregory Z55 3.4
Tent Black Diamond Lighthouse with trash bag for grd cloth 4
Total Weight: 33 lbs.

Winter:
All as above but add the following:
Cook gear, more fuel + .75
Water -1.3
Mittens +.5
Sleep system 10 lbs so add +4.4
Tent: add vestibule +1.25
MSR Denali snowshoes 5 I’ve expanded them from my foot of 56 sq.in. to MSR 112 sq.in. apiece. Then I expanded each to 208 sq.in., but I still post-hole at times.
Long johns 1.5
Total Weight: 45.1 lbs.
Summer sleep system: 1 thermorest (1.5” two-track big agnes) 2.2 + Big Agnes Yampa 40 2.0 + Pillow 1.2 + Big Agnes inflatable pillow .2 = 5.6 lbs.

Winter sleep system: 2.2 lb two track pad + Big Agnes Storm 0 3.5 lbs, Big Agnes Yampa 40 2.0, closed cel pad 1.0 + inflatable pillow .2 + pillow 1.2 = 10.1 lbs.

To Lazy climber
As for my response to Big Agnes, this question of mine of loft would be helpful to them I would think. After having purchased three bags and two mattresses or $1108.00 of sleep gear from them as my first choices in down bags and pads over the years, I think I do in fact have a leg to stand on. Personally, if I was the note recipient at Agnes, I’d appreciate the feedback of this sort over the ones that say, “All is great but I just haven’t used it on -20 yet”. I certainly have used and will continue to use their gear.
I do appreciate your comments, however.
As for REI, they are my first choice in purchasing anything. However, in their list of what I consider good quality down bags, the warmest and the most compact of all of them, I would ignore all but the 800+ fill down ones. It is nearly counterproductive to purchase the 600 and 650 fill ones. The REI selections in the 800+ fill range are the following: Sherpa Tenzing -40, Marmot Couloir 0, Marmot Helium 0, Marmot Pinnacle +15, Mountain Hardware Phamtom +32, and the Mountain Hardware +45. However, they do sell Mountain Hardware Phantom 0 because I purchased that one from them three years ago. An outstanding bag for loft and compressibility, but alas, too tight in the shoulders at 59” of girth for a big-boned guy. REI leaves out the very best bags from other companies: GoLite Adrenaline 0, Montbell UL SS Down Hugger #1, Integral Designs LPD1-Rockies, Western Mountaineering, and Feathered Friends. For the REI line-up, I’d put my money on the Mormot Couloir 0.

To uwe
Your peak list is extensive! Good to hear from a Montbell owner! I was always curious about them. I knew they were light and because of the stretch feature that they could be very warm as well. At 3.1 lbs your 0 bag rates very high for amount of cu. In. of insulation and for warmth (cu.in. of insulation) to weight ratio. I believe the ideal bag would have the mummy pad sleeve in the bottom and--the stretch feature. Two outstanding ideas I think.

Right now, I lack not a darn thing in gear but want to just get out on the snow and get with it! Next mid-week Holy Cross I believe. Got to get out!—NOW!

[newnative]

1st14erAt50:

Looking back at all this, I don't fault you in your methods, and honestly never have. My only "Beef" with your post was that you posted asking for advice, and then continued on to slam BA, not really asking for advice. As I said a few times previously, I felt you posted under false pre-tenses, and I still do. In your latest post you are admittedly calling out BA, and I'm ok with that. If your original post had been titled, "BA Sucks and here's why..." I would never have posted a reply, I would've read your post and continued on. But that wasn't the case, and I think we can agree on that. Again, I can respect your "beef" with BA, just post accordingly. Petty on my part? Perhaps... but I appreciate and respect transparency. To answer your well thought out questions...

I've never bought a BA bag (or any BA gear for that matter). I've never measured loft, or any other specs, of any gear I've purchased once I've received it. I buy it, take it out to the mountains and see how it works for me and I've yet to be disappointed. I have 3 bags, 2 of which are Kelty, and one of which is The North Face, all of different lofts and specifications and they all meet my expectations based on what I purchased them for. I never did the chart or homework that you've done (as I said previously) but I bought my bags at REI, knowing that if they didn't do the job I could always return them and try another bag. Perhaps I'm just an easy camper/sleeper but in a bag rated at 10 degrees I've always been comfortable at that rating, or perhaps even 10 degrees lower - as I said, I can always add another layer. Honestly, I'd never spend the kind of money you've spent on cold weather sleeping gear, and if I were about to drop $650.00 on a cold weather sleeping system then maybe I'd be more demanding of my supplier, but that isn't me and never will be. Do I believe a bag is worth more to someone else than it is to me? That's subjective - obviously you believe that it's ok to spend $650.00 on a cold weather sleep system for local mountaineering as long as it's justified as per your research. I don't believe that to be necessary for the Colorado mountains. If I were climbing Denali, or one of the 8k meter peaks then maybe I could justify that kind of money on a sleep system, but my most expensive bag has been $275.00 and it's kept me warm in sub zero temps in January and February at altitudes of 12000 feet plus here in Colorado . Does that make me right and you wrong? Of course not.

I appreciate (now) that your escape is in the up front work regarding your gear purchases, and after reading your explanation I can see your angle. It's a very different angle than mine but I respect it. I take a more hands on approach, and have never (nor will I ever) measure the specs of a piece of gear and compare my measurements to the manufacturers measurements, I just have no desire to do so. Again, I'm not saying you're right and I'm wrong, just post accordingly ya know? Do you at least see my point in all this? My only point of contention has been that your original post wasn't genuine, and I hope you can see that.

I'm not calling out your methods, just your reason for posting, does that make sense? Your methods work for you, mine work for me, and they're very different which is all good. Nothing wrong with that my friend, that's what forums are all about. Good luck, take care, and safe travels.

[pnolans]

If you're not already doing reviews for Backpacker magazine or something, you darn well should be.

Man, you're rigorous!

Oh, and I too didn't say that's a bad thing, just... Wow!

[martynda]

I have a BA Lost Ranger that I got at the REI Garage sale. It is rated at 15 degrees. I've slept with it when it was 5 degrees inside the tent wearing long johns and a down jacket. The guy in his 15 degree Marmot (don't remember the model) was really cold that night next to me. Did 15ish degrees in just long johns and a fleece at Kite Lake. So I'm pretty sure their temp ratings are spot on, at least for me. Keep in mind that what kind of pad you use is crucial, for me it's a heavy R6.2 Thermarest Basecamp. I've never measured it, bu I'll agree that the loft seems a little on the low side, but it seems to do the job.

That being said, I'm in the market for a 0 or -20 bag for winter because 15 just doesn't cut in in CO for me.