Forum
Buying gear? Please use these links to help 14ers.com:

More info...

Other ways to help...

Getting out of hand

Info on gear, conditioning, and preparation for hiking/climbing. Gear Classifieds
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Summit

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby Magnum420 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:01 pm

Its like GoLite that stuff is perpetually 60-70% off.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive the full price you see on Golite's website is pretty much the price you would have paid for the gear if you got it from a retailer like REI. Now that they only sell direct, there is no middle man store like REI doubling the price of their gear, so they can offer it at a much lower price.
"I was high on life till I realized it was cut with idiots!" ---Anon---

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby Bean » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:49 pm

Whatever the deal with golite stuff is, I'm still pissed that they dropped a great running singlet and have no suitable replacement.
gdthomas wrote:Bean, you're an idiot.

http://throughpolarizedeyes.com

User avatar
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:58 pm
Location: Estes Park

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby unclegar » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:00 pm

Magnum420 wrote:
Its like GoLite that stuff is perpetually 60-70% off.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive the full price you see on Golite's website is pretty much the price you would have paid for the gear if you got it from a retailer like REI. Now that they only sell direct, there is no middle man store like REI doubling the price of their gear, so they can offer it at a much lower price.


This is true. They will state suggested retail $nnn 50% off, etc. They do use phrases like "50% off sale" though. They DO have some good stuff. My favorite down jacket finally bit the dust. It has patches all over it and finally the zipper started sticking. My wife has done a lot of sewing so I asked her if she could replace the zipper and she said, "sure." After spending I don't know how many hours trying to remove the zipper, she is a believer in their quality (for zippers anyway). She said she has replaced many zippers but has never seen anything like the way this one was put in.
...the mountain peaks belong to Him. -- PS 95:4

“All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt.”
― Charles M. Schulz

User avatar
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 3:24 pm
Location: CO is home. Work is East Coast

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby lackerstef » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:06 pm

Zambo wrote:
lordhelmut wrote:I guess what I'm really asking is, despite increasing labor costs overseas and standard yearly inflation, what is the main difference between a pro shell made from Arcteryx to Patagonia to Marmot to North Face? Are they charging for a logo or is the craftsmanship really all that more spectacular? I've heard from credible mountaineers that using Frogg Toggs for 20$ are sufficient enough for them in the summer months, and they just get a new pair when they breakdown. I've seen expert skiers and boarders ride around the mountains in the dead of winter in Carharts.

And if these companies do unload most of their inventory during their massive sales, where do the profits come from? Sorry, I'm almost completely ignorant how retail works, but I do know that nobody should pay 680$ for a jacket. If labor costs are in fact increasing, but they are still selling most of their stuff at wholesale prices during their sales, where do the profits come from?


Good questions Brian. I have wondered this for years, and never gotten a good answer from anyone!

Essentially, I have always wondered what (if any) tangible differences are there between the top brands. Undoubtedly people can ramble on about branding, consumerism, image, perceptions, etc. I have no doubt in my mind that these play a huge role in brand like Arx and Patagonia charging high prices.

But is that all of it? Does the name alone warran the extra hundreds of dollars? It can't be the only difference, can it?

I would love to hear about the craftsmanship/production which supposedly sets apart the top brands. It would be cool to hear one of the product engineers try to defend a $600 Arcteryx shell against a comparable North Face for half the price. It is materials, stitching, better machines they are made on (??) or what? No question that all retail is marked up 100% of cost, but what exactly are physical the differences in the products that warrant such high prices?

Like I said, I've never really seen anyone be able to answer that question in a satisfying way....


Unfortunately, I remember a lot of random stuff but forget a lot of important things.... I do remember bumming some aspirin from you because of my knee (thanks again). Seems you have been making some good trips lately - glad to see you're doing well. Anyway.....

I agree. I have seen some solid videos from Arcteryx but of course they are going to say all the best about their products. I also got my jacket for half off and then had it replaced by a brand new one by the company (they are awesome with repairs and customer service). Nevertheless, I would NEVER pay full price for any of their pieces.

User avatar
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:35 am
Location: Louisville, CO

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby Kapelmuur » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:07 pm

The method of successfully marketing a product in the outdoor gear [and many another] industry can be easily summarized:

Convince people that they can overcome lack of talent and/or hard work by buying more and more expensive gear.
Long Live the Fighters
Unremarkable feats of bike racing, mountain climbing and life in the nation's perfect suburb.

User avatar
Posts: 1373
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby Dave B » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:29 pm

Kapelmuur wrote:The method of successfully marketing a product in the outdoor gear [and many another] industry can be easily summarized:

Convince people that they can overcome lack of talent and/or hard work by buying more and more expensive gear.


That's right, I spent $1500 on a set of Ping golf clubs and my game went from 25 over to 4 under in a day. It's really pretty amazing. I also bought a pair of the best climbing shoes and now climb 13d. I think I'll need to practice a bit more before breaking into the low 14's though. I probably just need a new harness.
"There is no cheating in climbing, only lying." - Semi-Rad

User avatar
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 11:53 am
Location: colorado springs, co

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby yourhorsedoctor » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:36 pm

I love the banner at the top - "free shipping for orders over $75." Is there a Patagucci order UNDER $75?

User avatar
Posts: 1544
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:33 pm
Location: Arvada, CO

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby coloradokevin » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:19 am

Jtjohnso24 wrote:Patagonia makes great stuff, but it's definitley overpriced. I know they take the time to make sure their products are environmentally friendly from the very start. That adds additional costs. I can't afford their grear unless it goes on sale, but I highly recommend reading Let My People Go Surfing by Yvon Chouinard. It's basically his story and business model. Patagonia does a lot of great stuff. Most notably, buying a big chunk of Patagonia and giving it back to the people.


I can't prove that this is the case, but I don't necessarily know that I support Patagonia's switch to recycled fabrics, etc. I have a Patagonia lightweight capilene t-shirt that I bought in circa 1997. That shirt has been through hell and back in the wilderness, and I still use it to this day. Greatest shirt I ever owned (just talking about it nearly makes me misty-eyed). Anyway, I have two more lightweight capilene shirts (I think they're now called Capilene 1, or something like that) that I bought in more recent years, after Patagonia started bragging about their switch to recycled fabrics. Both of these shirts have quite literally worn themselves to shreds, and are virtually unusable. They've both seen far less time in the mountains than my old shirt, and have been exposed to far less trying conditions.

Whether it is the fault of Patagonia's switch to recycled fabrics, or just poor quality these days, I'm no longer happy with the base layer product that they are producing. Seriously, I ought to post pictures of these shirts on this thread. It truly is pathetic how far their quality has fallen in this area.

Nevertheless, I do still love my Regulator Fleece jacket.

User avatar
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:26 pm
Location: New York

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby nyker » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:30 am

Yes, fully agreed, paying full retail Stinks.

Something to think about...If you are selling your used truck and thinking of getting $7,000 for it and someone offers you $13,000 for it, will you say no?

What I can say to echo comments here, is that this is simply "retail market technicals" at work...if there is demand by consumers to pay $700, why would a company sell it for $300? This applies to even those purportedly "green" companies like Patagonia. Yes, this is a bummer for us consumers on a budget particularly in this economy, but the fact is that there are enough people to pay that much for them to justify selling it there at that level. This is the basic tenent of capital markets and supply and demand. Tell people the same jacket was used to make a first ascent on K2 and have a "signature edition", and you can charge $950 or whatever.

I was in the local Patagonia store for their recent 50% off summer sale, rumaging around to find the best discounts. I ended up buying a $9 T-shirt, marked down from $24. Another guy was there with his Land Rover outside double parked, buying an armfull of new jackets that rung up to over $3500, without even looking at the sales rack. Not all folks in NY have money to burn, but some clearly do.

There are three basic costs in the retail world: original cost to make, wholesale and retail (yes, there are things like Jobber rates, but let's assume just three levels for now).

The range of a typical retail markup is quite large, but let's say the average markup is 2.3x from wholesale, but could be 10x (1,000%) - i.e. what the retailer pays for it; the cost to make it is much lower to the manufacturer. A "manufacturer" could either buy an item from an offshore source or actually manufacture it..lets say a name brand buys a t shirt from a merchant in Vietnam for $8. The name brand will add a logo, resell it wholesale for $25 to retailers with the name brand tags sewn in and tacked on, then the retailers will sell it for you and me for $70+tax.

From source and $8, several things realistically must be added on to stay in business and maintain operations in the black before a profit is seen - i.e. General Administrative and Selling Expenses, the manufacturer needs to recover packaging and sewing/prep costs, labor, land transport and shipping back to the US, local levies and taxes. Then, factor in rent they must pay for their retail stores or corporate HQ, other overhead, utilities, insurance, pensions, healthcare for its workers, etc and the sales price to the retailer must cover all this first, THEN a margin is added to it. Other factors like foreign exchange rates, the recent runup in commodity prices and fuel cost volatility also play a role.

For a place like Patagonia which makes and sells its own gear, the local Patagonia store IS one of the retailers, hence the same price as you see in REI, etc.. The more a retailer buys, often the greater discount from wholesale they receive. You wonder when you see a 50-70% off sale...yes, they are still probably earning a profit on some of that stuff even with those discounts.

OK, enough retail talk, let's get back to climbing!

User avatar
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:05 pm
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby Ed Matthews » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:06 pm

People are paying for the jacket even if it is expensive, if people stopped buying they would either have to drop the prices or stop making the jacket all together. It isn't a government issue so much as it is simple capitalism, they have something you want and therefore they can charge what they want and you can choose to buy it or not. You don't need a $700 jacket to be a successful climber or mountaineer, but if you want to buy it that is your prerogative. There are plenty of other shells priced well below it that are probably just as good or close enough. Yay for free markets!

User avatar
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Montrose

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby Dakota » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:28 pm

Zambo wrote:
lordhelmut wrote:I guess what I'm really asking is, despite increasing labor costs overseas and standard yearly inflation, what is the main difference between a pro shell made from Arcteryx to Patagonia to Marmot to North Face? Are they charging for a logo or is the craftsmanship really all that more spectacular? I've heard from credible mountaineers that using Frogg Toggs for 20$ are sufficient enough for them in the summer months, and they just get a new pair when they breakdown. I've seen expert skiers and boarders ride around the mountains in the dead of winter in Carharts.

And if these companies do unload most of their inventory during their massive sales, where do the profits come from? Sorry, I'm almost completely ignorant how retail works, but I do know that nobody should pay 680$ for a jacket. If labor costs are in fact increasing, but they are still selling most of their stuff at wholesale prices during their sales, where do the profits come from?


Good questions Brian. I have wondered this for years, and never gotten a good answer from anyone!

Essentially, I have always wondered what (if any) tangible differences are there between the top brands. Undoubtedly people can ramble on about branding, consumerism, image, perceptions, etc. I have no doubt in my mind that these play a huge role in brand like Arx and Patagonia charging high prices.

But is that all of it? Does the name alone warran the extra hundreds of dollars? It can't be the only difference, can it?

I would love to hear about the craftsmanship/production which supposedly sets apart the top brands. It would be cool to hear one of the product engineers try to defend a $600 Arcteryx shell against a comparable North Face for half the price. It is materials, stitching, better machines they are made on (??) or what? No question that all retail is marked up 100% of cost, but what exactly are physical the differences in the products that warrant such high prices?

Like I said, I've never really seen anyone be able to answer that question in a satisfying way....



I call it drinking the KoolAid. I have a North Face with Gore Pro and an Arc'Teryx Beta AR with Gore Pro, and they are the exact same coat. Same taped seams, both made in China. I bought the TNF at an outlet for $160 and the Beta on S&C for $260 about 4 years apart respectively. Great coats, but I would never pay full price for either. I thought the amount I paid as it were was stupid and felt guilty about it for quite some time.
Attachments
IMG_2367.jpg
Same labels..more or less
IMG_2367.jpg (122.21 KiB) Viewed 498 times
IMG_2366.JPG
Both made in the land of Dragons
IMG_2366.JPG (277.04 KiB) Viewed 498 times
IMG_2362.JPG
Yellow= TNF, Blue= Arc Beta
IMG_2362.JPG (194.23 KiB) Viewed 498 times
If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
-Albert Einstein

User avatar
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Littleton, CO

Re: Getting out of hand

Postby 3rdGenNative » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:30 am

I've only read the first page and a few other entries on this but here's my take. In economics, a thing is worth what people will pay for it. The market sets the price. Yeah, you have to factor in break even points, transportation, taxes and competition but let's face it, the market for outdoor stuff seems to be HIGHLY resistant to a recession. There's a LOT of people who will drink the Kool-Aid and buy the high-denier, stoker, Gtex Pro shell with the high-end logo because they can't tell themselves "no". There was a discussion around here a couple of weeks ago about sunglasses. I've been told by someone in that industry that the cost of production for a $500 pair of sunglasses is about $7.50. It's similar to cell phones, jeans, computers, & toys. Create a brand and a mystique. Market it to the masses but make it feel exclusive and leading edge. Some have called it "marketecture".
"There is more in us than we know. If we can be made to see it, perhaps, for the rest of our lives, we will never again settle for less."
Kurt Hahn-Founder of Outward Bound

"Reading about nature is fine, but if a person walks in the woods and listens carefully, he can learn more than what is in books, for they speak with the voice of God." George Washington Carver

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests