Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Threads related to Colorado mountaineering accidents but please keep it civil and respectful. Friends and relatives of fallen climbers will be reading these posts.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by kushrocks »

Greg aka Fisching . . . .that was painful to hear but beautifully put. I told you this privately but I will say this publicly . . . . for what you especially had to deal with that day . . . you are my hero. . . and it as an honor to call you and everyone else there on that terrible day my friends.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by BillMiddlebrook »

Kodachrome wrote:seeking improvements.
Dan, now you've got my attention. There are plenty of good suggestions (in this thread) on the mechanics of accident threads but I don't think there are substantive improvements I can make (to the site) which will help people deal with these tragedies and try to learn from the details.
Kodachrome wrote:So when someone is lost, hurt or dies in these places, it often stirs the soul of anyone one of us at any one time. And the the way the world works in terms of when this site was first launched compared to now has changed markedly in terms of web born communities and what society at large expects of those communities in terms of these topics and subsequent conduct.
you lost me

moving on...
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Kodachrome »

Bill,

For the past 5 years, I have had the good fortune of attending through my work a specific Washington D.C. based think tank that address along with issues of national security, the Information Revolution's impact on society. Suffice to say, there are some really talented, insightful and influential people in attendance and a lot of good work is done. One recurring theme in recent years is the growth of online communities such as this one often mimicking tactile communities and how they can often be subject to the same issues as real communities.

With communities and forums who's population and interest surrounds topics that have inherent risks such as injury or death, several of those in the think tank are becoming increasingly concerned at the impact of these very types of discussions going somewhat or totally unchecked in a public forum such as this.

For example, I live in a small resort community like you do, we have lots of people outside of the community who visit. So lets say we are at a local restaurant that is filled with people. We tend to not discuss too loudly an avalanche death, details of a SAR op and instead save it for another time, this is common courtesy, common decency and common sense. But in an online community like this one, it is open to the public and then has to be constantly babysat or moderated like when USAKeller had to delete posts and remind people of the term "Pending Notification of Next of Kin" when the community sadly lost Steve Gladbach.

So basically, people like my self and those in the think tanks are left scratching our heads as to why these topics are not simply put behind at least one layer of password protection. I am a member of other forums who do this on topics that are more what they refer to as the "Lounge", a place where people can be more open and not be subject to a Google search. So when it comes to addressing being sensitive and respectful of those who are related to lost, injured of deceased persons who may be known on this site, it speaks to many people that we ought to be making adjustments that puts everyone's interest at heart.

I get the feeling that I am viewed as some kind of upstart or socialist and that is not the case. I am just voicing an opinion that I feel strongly about and one that is part of a larger and growing voice of how conduct on the internet while seeming all virtual, free and safe, is starting to really have a negative impact on real persons in society.

Like I said before, this is not as much a problem to be solved as it is an opportunity to lead a change in the way we think about these online communities to better serve everyone.

I hope this clears things up a bit and good luck in moving it all forward.. :wink:
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by d_baker »

MonGoose wrote: 1) There may be some benefit to having two threads - a memorial and a discussion thread. People want to speculate and during every memorial thread energy is wasted telling people to stop speculating. Creating a discussion thread would allow for a better memorial thread in which no speculation whatsoever would be tolerated (and potentially deleted by the moderator). Concerning the discussion thread, it's going to be tricky to keep it productive because basically we're just moving the problem out of the memorial thread into it's own thread. The discussion thread will go through it's own evolution and may result in something positive or it may lead to a "no speculation / discussion whatsoever" policy. There's only one way to find out.

It's been done.
When Kevin Hayne died, a member started a separate thread addressing his partner Travis. I believe, in part, that Steve wrote his "when I die" comments with the Kevin Hayne incident in mind. Steve was disgusted that people could slam this kid with questions about the accident, a kid that just lost his friend on the mountain.

Some people will be ok and receptive to discussing accidents they've been a witness to or were a victim of, but others may not. In time, it gets easier to talk about, and the pain of that day fades. The memory stays though.

While I have mentioned Steve's When I Die thread, I want to remind people about his response three or four pages in.....(he WAS NOT against analysis...)
sgladbach wrote: To clarify,

There was some hyperbole in my statements; you are 100% correct about learning from mistakes.

I recognize the absolute necessity and intrinsic benefit of SNR and other professionals analyzing an accident and using the info to teach and prepare. I, like you, would hope that people learn from these tragedies. My real beef was against the armchair analysis that goes on before the professionals have had the opportunity gather all the data and present it in a dispassionate format designed to help (i.e. AAC anual report or in the annual CMC Safety and Leadership course, etc.) I don't think I need to belabor this point. Now that you know I'm not REALLY against true analysis, I'm certain you can figure out the kind of banter that I was actually railing against.

I am also deeply bothered by the fact that this weaker type of analysis occurs on the threads where people who know and love the lost individual are first hearing of the tragedy. That is not appropriate.

My comment about people having taken a training course followed my comment that people need to take a training course. The second comment flowed from the first. I KNOW that most people on Fourteeners are not getting training; that's why I suggested it. Fourteeners has filled a hole left when the CMC didn't respond quickly to the age of the internet. Things will never go back (nor should they), but I'm hoping some kind of weird meld will occur where more members of this forum join the CMC, take courses, and breathe new, young life back into the club (the 100th anniversary is imminent!!)

Some of this summer's tragedies involved very well trained climbers and climbing teachers. Training won't always save you, but it (not an internet thread announcing a tragedy) is the appropriate place to learn the lessons left behind when others die.

Because emotion and tone are difficult to express on the internet, some have the impression that I was criticizing certain people or a particular person. I was not.

Steve

I agree about this being an interesting and valuable discussion.

(But I wish Koda would learn how to quote.)


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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by usfgal »

I agree that there are general rules of safety and precaution that we don't (or shouldn't) need a tragedy to reinforce. I fully agree with Steve Gladbach's sentiment against 'armchair quarterbacking.' I have a tough time with judgmental sentiments. Personally, when I hear about individuals' experiences with accidents in the mountains (regardless of how they ended), it affects me in a way that reading mountaineering safety guidelines (e.g., from Freedom of the Hills) doesn't. Within a week or two of Talus Monkey's death, my husband and I were on Longs (covered in snow at the time). We had just gone through the keyhole, and I was putting on my crampon and dropped the bar down the mountain. My husband went down to see if he could find it. He almost left his ice axe and said at the last minute, he thought about Talus Monkey and took it. He fell, and his ice axe probably saved his life. I remember the woman who fell from Crestone because a hold gave. Even though I know the rules 'test every hold,' 'keep three points of contact,' and 'don't pull out on a hold,' that woman's story is with me EVERY time I am on a more technical peak and serves as compelling reinforcement to do those things. Hearing how many people have gotten lost and in trouble on Holy Cross made us hyper-aware of paying attention to the route. There are plenty of other examples. The tone and intention behind revealing details of accidents, particularly ones that have resulted in deaths, matter, as do the time and location and the feelings of the people involved. I write TRs of every 14er--I tend to be kind of private and write those as a journal for my husband and I, but when we are done with the 14ers, I plan to revisit them and put together something for this forum that includes both highlights and mistakes we made, and I hope that can help people who are new or have questions about a particular peak or weakness that they are dealing with. I think there is a lot to be gained from people's personal accounts, regardless of how they end, but tragedies and my own emotional memory of times I actually wondered if I was going to die probably are the most powerful reminders of the importance of safety and taking good care in the mountains (for me).
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by BillMiddlebrook »

Thanks, Darin.
Steve's wisdom will be with us for a long time
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by mattpayne11 »

MonGoose wrote:Matt, while I think it's good to compose a database of climbing deaths, dates, locations and news articles, I think your efforts might be better served by focusing on a handful of climbing accidents in which the partners of the deceased have a desire to share information instead of trying to write up each and every incident.
This is a good suggestion. I have been talking a lot with my wife and with friends about this as you might guess the topic weighs heavily on my mind and thoughts and I have a lot of strong feelings about it. I am afraid that a lot of my loved ones encourage me to continue even though I see many great points to the contrary here.

One suggestion my wife had was to leave names out of the "reports" and to keep it less personal. I like the idea, but not sure anyone else feels.

In retrospect, I kind of wish I would not have gone about doing these reports on my own as I think I could have gained a lot by collaborating with other forum members and done a higher quality job of it, and gained more outward/open acceptance. Anyways...
susanjoypaul wrote:Bill has allowed us to "police" ourselves, and so far I think we've all done an excellent job of that.
While I think this has worked very well in most instances, I respectfully disagree when it comes to this topic specifically. I've seen many posts degrade into horrible name-calling and lots of personal attacks not only on me but others that have come to my defense directly or indirectly. Despite what people think, I have feelings. No one wants to see the site turn into a dictatorship, but a little respect could be afforded. In disagreeing with someone's comments you don't need to call them names, etc. Some might find that comment hilariously ironic since the very act of asking questions on a death thread is seen by some as disrespectful, so I guess it all boils down to perception. My perception is that people are allowed to bully others and very few do much to stop it. Read the 1st couple of pages of this thread and you will see that others feel the same way.
Fisching wrote:+1 to d_baker's idea of moving in the direction of covering "close calls." In that situation, the people who are a) still alive and b) willing to share their experience for others so they themselves can learn as well as interest members of the climbing community. After all, the idea of looking at accidents is to better understand mountaineering techniques and safety precautions, but it's far more valuable, and WAY less damaging, and significantly more accurate when it's a first-hand account off the experience.
I agree, it would be a good place to start and would go a long way. If the self-policed forum has no interest in discussion surrounding deaths (which I think this thread surprisingly shows just the opposite), then at least we can direct people there if they want to glean any teachings.
usfgal wrote:Personally, when I hear about individuals' experiences with accidents in the mountains (regardless of how they ended), it affects me in a way that reading mountaineering safety guidelines (e.g., from Freedom of the Hills) doesn't.
This is the point in my brain I can't keep shaking. Reading about safety is one thing. Reading about a real example really grabs your attention, and knowing where/how they died makes the knowledge that much more poignant and memorable.

Still the question persists as to whether or not that knowledge is worth all the effort or pain. I don't think we'll ever come to a conclusion on that (and how could you)?
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by CarpeDM »

rijaca wrote:Back to the subject....

The purpose of accident investigations and analysis is to prevent future accidents. Period. Not to satisfy some macabre desire to know more. And to conduct an investigation properly requires analysis of the facts surrounding and leading up to the accident. Not speculation based on news media reports and social media 'sound bites'. This requires interviewing witnesses, analyzing environmental conditions, and typically on site observations of the accident scene. All very difficult to do with the case of mountaineering accidents.

There is a time and place for accident analysis. Being critical of another's decision(s) on the mountain publically before all the information is available is rude at best and downright disrespectful in most cases.

I've not read the whole thread, but I understand the different sides - and sympathize to some degree with many of the opposing points made. But rijaca's language jumped out at me. It jumped out at me because I was in a group that was involved in an accident that was "covered" in the Forum, and I know something about both the “rude” and “disrespectful” tone as well as about “proper investigation.”

At the time, I did not offer my account of the events on this board because: (1) it seemed inappropriate in this public forum at that time. There had been some nasty speculation in "our" thread and in some previous threads, and there were some people who just seemed a little too fascinated with accident threads in a "macabre" sense (as far as I can recall, the OP was not one of those - and I harbor no personal animosity to him). (2) out of respect for the wishes of other people who were there (3) our accident was one of those "freak accidents" where knowing the particulars wouldn't help anyone to learn much of anything except that mountaineering is dangerous and that experienced people who follow all the rules can get killed, too. (4) At the time, and even now, it just seems to me that you cannot convey in a public forum like this all that needs to be conveyed to fully express what actually happened. Kind of a "you just weren't there" answer - as unsatisfactory as that is to both you and me.

Having said that, I was (and am) willing to discuss the accident in more personal settings in which people tend both to behave more respectfully and to get more nuance. As I'm sure happens in most cases, I found it helpful to talk about it with trusted friends and acquaintances. And I know that other people feel differently about sharing details of their accidents here. I respect their right to do that, and feel that many who have shared have often done so with good, respectful reactions from this community. It just wasn't right for me.

Another reason this language jumped out at me is that it's emblematic of a position expressed here by others that we should rely on the results of professional analysis instead of our own "amateur" "speculation." I reject that for two reasons: (1) in the case of our accident, every one of the news articles that we saw contained mistakes - many of them about very basic information like how many people were in the group, or where the accident took place. No one asked us for our account. (Perhaps they were trying to give us respectful distance.) Furthermore, the ANAM volume that discussed the accident had several factual errors and few details. Again, it seems that no one contacted us to get a first-hand account. Instead, they relied on the thread on this site and the articles that were linked to it. I also highly doubt that anyone conducted any "on site observations." So there's your "professional" analysis. (2) Don't sign your life away to "experts" and "professionals." Asking questions, seeking answers to enlarge your understanding - especially when it comes to a dangerous activity that you participate in - is not a bad thing. Just be mindful of when and in what manner you do it. It is human nature to raise questions and seek detail even when we know how unsettling it seems. I've done it myself. I just don't do it on public forums. And I don't call out people for making idiotic mistakes that of course I surely would never make, especially based on questionable or incomplete accounts.

Yes, there is a tension here between the two sides. How you handle it makes all the difference.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Tory Wells »

For a little perspective from the family's point of view, ngladbach wrote this in the 'Death Threads' thread:
Very well said, Crossfitter. I am very grateful to report that all of the posts for Steve Gladbach were very positive. I thank you all so very much. Steve's 13 yo daughter read the posts nightly, it helped with her recovery. Thank you 14ers.com community. Those positive words were priceless.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by gb »

I've lost friends over the years. I lost a very good friend to an avalanche in BC a few years ago. There was a thread on TGR- but it stayed positive- so much so that his family signed in to TGR to say how much the thread meant to them as they grieved for Jack. There were lessons to be learned, but in the end those lessons were only learned by those of us close to Jack who discussed it in private, off the web.

I was also good friends with one of the victims (Jim Jack) of the Stevens Pass avalanche a couple of years ago (and knew several others in the party). That accident received one of the best, and most in-depth, accident reports I have ever seen. It's an incredible piece of journalism, taking advantage of new technologies to give the reader a sense of what happened better than anything I have ever read. http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/sn ... nnel-creek

In both cases, what was on the internet was good. But those are two extremes, and most accidents end up in the middle, with too much blame, and not enough info. Dawson's sheep creek post has been discussed, but that one falls into the "incomplete info" category for me- 2 of the victims and the only survivor are from Crested Butte, so much of what I heard around town didn't mesh with what Lou said, and therefore his conclusions weren't necessarily valid.

Every case is different- I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Unfortunately it's tough to say when the discussion should center around condolences, and when the discussion should center around analysis.


Weird idea I just had- obviously not every climber is here on 14ers. But for those of us who are, maybe our profile could have a box to check saying whether or not we would like an accident, should we have one, be discussed (almost like an organ donor card). Sgladbach's wishes have been honored- but only because he happened to spell it out very clearly. Just a thought for those who may have a strong opinion about it. If a box like that was on my profile, I'm not sure if I could check it or not. Like I said, just throwing it out there.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by lodgling »

gb wrote: Just a thought for those who may have a strong opinion about it. If a box like that was on my profile, I'm not sure if I could check it or not.
Whoa, interesting idea and a tough call. Perhaps a decision that should be pondered while hiking Quandary or Conundrum? Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Tim A »

I typically abstain from all memorial threads because of their tendency to degrade to pointless conjecture and opt instead to pray for the families in private. I do find it fascinating that most people who have been directly involved in an accident or who lost close friends in the mountains tend to feel very strongly about keeping those moments to themselves and only discussing them with trusted individuals much later and in private. As MountainMedic said about "the point" being lost on most people, I think for many the loss has to be personal before they "get" it. Most people (fortunately) will never experience that kind of intimate relationship with death in the wilderness and so will remain ignorant as to why survivors and first responders typically get so defensive when asked for details.

I am reminded of one particularly egregious instance of the pointless conjecture which so often plagues these kinds of threads. When the infamous avalanche near Loveland Pass was first reported, the preliminary reports suggested that the lone survivor took off from the slope towards the road to get help. On the first page of that thread on this site, a poster immediately slammed that person for taking off, as "everybody knows not to do that." I remember reading that in real time and thinking "Do we even know that's actually what happened? Does that survivor really need that kind of attention at this point in time? Do we as a community of posters and observers really need to remind ourselves of our superiority in decision-making when those five people are still considered "missing" and haven't even been unburied yet?

A respected poster of this site stepped in quickly and said, in summary, "That kind of speculation is not appropriate at this time," and fortunately it didn't degrade too much further.

A few pages (and hours of real time) later, the reports changed and it was discovered that the lone survivor had in fact been buried for many hours and had to be carried off the mountain by SAR folks. So the ENTIRE premise of the post attacking him (or, in the words of our Accident Investigators Commission on this site, "the post educating the public") was completely and utterly pointless because it was critical of something which in this universe hadn't even happened. That poster has since edited his posts for posterity's sake (i just re-read the first pages of that thread) but it highlighted to me so clearly why I am disgusted with our general level of community ignorance and ego. Most of us have deceived ourselves into thinking our morbid curiosity is actually a wholesome impulse born out of the instincts of self-preservation when in fact it is little more than an even baser primal instinct: that of being fascinated with death and allowing our inner defense mechanisms to kick in to void our insecurities about it potentially happening to us personally.

All this being said, I read all of the reports posted on Matt's site before I got into climbing in Colorado last year as well as many of the accident threads from the previous years posted in the Memorial Section of this forum. I considered myself "educated" on what to do and not to do. I reached the summits of two 14ers that year and felt like I was a climbing master.

Since that time I've read some sections of "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" (the ones applicable to my own activities) as well as the entirety of "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain." I have since had my life saved by properly carrying my axe in the self-belay stance and arresting a completely unexpected fall on a downsloping ridgeline near a short cliff band. I have bailed on a climb on Bierstadt in winter not because of avalanche danger on the west slopes but because I knew I hadn't the strength to summit and make it back to the car given the unsupported snowpack after Winter Storm Triton and after digging a pit to look at it. I chose a unique approach to climbing to the Sherman/Sheridan saddle this past June because I had memorized the sections of "staying alive" dealing with wet slides, temperature gradients, and the effect of rain on a snowpack. I climbed about 600 feet of Cristo Couloir under the tutelage of Bobby Finn, and listened to everything he said as well as watched every move he made during our short climb there before turning around due to my own altitude issues.

Which resources really made me a better climber? Climbing with a mentor? Reading (and studying, and rehearsing) resources written by the masters? Or clicking through pages of threads on websites written by people I don't know who are conjecturing on "facts" they don't know about people they don't know who's deaths in the mountains were ultimately caused by reasons nobody but they and those closest to them know?

It's pretty straight-forward to me.

-"Freedom of the Hills" had four pages of text and illustrations on self-arresting various types of falls and slides. Youtube had a few more videos I watched posted by guides in various places.

-"14ers: Victims of the Game" had nearly 20 pages devoted to slamming the character of Talus Monkey and all I ultimately walked away from after that was "carry an axe on snow."

Which resource saved me when a gust of wind knocked me over and I began sliding down the snow with wet chunks of it coming loose and stinging my eyes and nose as I struggled to flip my axe from self-belay to self-arrest stance and get my weight over it?
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