MRA at Maroon Bells

Colorado peak questions, condition requests and other info.
Forum rules
  • This is a mountaineering forum, so please keep your posts on-topic. Posts do not all have to be related to the 14ers but should at least be mountaineering-related.
  • Personal attacks and confrontational behavior will result in removal from the forum at the discretion of the administrators.
  • Do not use this forum to advertise, sell photos or other products or promote a commercial website.
  • Posts will be removed at the discretion of the site administrator or moderator(s), including: Troll posts, posts pushing political views or religious beliefs, and posts with the purpose of instigating conflict within the forum.
    For more details, please see the Terms of Use you agreed to when joining the forum.
User avatar
iceman
Posts: 314
Joined: 12/24/2006
14ers: 9 
Trip Reports (3)
 

MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by iceman »

Would you folks who have climbed the Bells recently concur with MRA's thoughts on the Bells conditions and their thoughts about placement of cairns misleading climbers?

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/154974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
speth
Posts: 684
Joined: 4/16/2010
14ers: 58  5 
13ers: 44
Trip Reports (3)
 

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by speth »

I climbed North Maroon in August... I personally had no route finding issues and thought it was fairly straight forward. Don't remember even seeing a lot of cairns once in the gullies, to be honest. YMMV.

All I want is to just have fun, live my life like a son of a gun
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sarcasm or not, it's not even funny to post something like this. Not at this time. Reported.
User avatar
SurfNTurf
Posts: 1890
Joined: 8/20/2009
14ers: 58  28 
13ers: 127 7
Trip Reports (48)
 
Contact:

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by SurfNTurf »

The second gully on N. Maroon is basically Cairn City. They're helpful in spots, but I had more success finding my own way after cairns led me off-route twice. (Stay in the gully. Don't go off to the right.) I did the same on the descent, while my partners followed cairns, and I waited at the gully crossover for 30 minutes while they downclimbed sketchy terrain. So, yeah, I agree with MRA.

If you study the route beforehand and don't rely on the cairns it's a relative cakewalk.
“There are two kinds of climbers: those who climb because their heart sings when they’re in the mountains, and all the rest.” - Alex Lowe

"There have been joys too great to describe in words, and there have been griefs upon which I cannot dare to dwell; and with those in mind I say, 'Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.'" - Edward Whymper
User avatar
MonGoose
Posts: 1110
Joined: 8/14/2009
14ers: 58  16  17 
13ers: 51 11 1
Trip Reports (16)
 
Contact:

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by MonGoose »

I think it's good that MRA is taking this approach. As for the Bells, I felt that North Maroon was pretty straight forward through the First and Second gully, until you reached the top of the Second gully. At that point there is no route and you have to pick your way the final few hundred feet to the summit.

As for South Maroon, there exists an endless web of worthless cairns on the final few hundred feet below the summit. I remember standing in the middle of the section and counting 5 cairns in 5 different directions around me.

One aspect that I feel makes the Bell's so dangerous is that so many people traverse across on their first Bell's attempt, which means they must downclimb a mountain they did not ascend. North Maroon for example would be very easy to get off route if you were descending a route you did not ascend. Although these peaks are rated as Class III and IV, getting a little bit off route can very quickly put you into Class V terrain on two of the most loose 14ers in Colorado.
User avatar
MuchosPixels
Posts: 215
Joined: 3/21/2011
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by MuchosPixels »

I think it would be great if MRA or anyone else qualified would re-evaluate the route up the peak and basically take down all cairns and mark a proper route. Like most said Im sure many of the cairns there just confuse people and might even contribute to people getting into trouble. A proper route will also help preserve the alpine environment by keeping everyone on the same path and not all over the place.
Normally I would like to leave the mountain as is but one has to recognize the popularity of an area like the Bells and try to make it safer and more sustainable within reason.
User avatar
highpilgrim
Posts: 3186
Joined: 3/14/2008
14ers: 58 
13ers: 84 1
Trip Reports (1)
 

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by highpilgrim »

MuchosPixels wrote:basically take down all cairns and mark a proper route.
You mean like painting bullseyes on rocks?

That seems misplaced. Making it easier for the unqualified to find their way on those mountains seems a recipe for disaster to me.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson

Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
Dick Derkase
User avatar
Jim Davies
Posts: 7638
Joined: 6/8/2006
14ers: 58  1 
13ers: 67
Trip Reports (5)
 

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by Jim Davies »

That sounds like the old "building roads creates more traffic" argument, which I've never bought into. Well-marked routes don't cause problems, IMO, poorly-marked routes do. Lenny Joyner might be alive today if there were better cairns on this route.
Climbing at altitude is like hitting your head against a brick wall — it's great when you stop. -- Chris Darwin
I'm pretty tired. I think I'll go home now. -- Forrest Gump
User avatar
CO Native
Posts: 4879
Joined: 7/26/2004
14ers: 58  2  15 
13ers: 29
Trip Reports (50)
 
Contact:

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by CO Native »

That's a very tricky proposal. Once MRA begins to maintain a route they also begin to take on liability for any flaws in that route. It wouldn't be long before someone sued them over an incident of getting off route and hurt.

Cairns have become unreliable at best on the fourteeners. Too many people who don't know what they're doing seem to like to pass the time by stacking rocks in the wrong places. If you trust some unknown person's stack of rocks more than your own evaluation of the the route and where you're heading then I'd say you need it's your judgement that needs to be called into question, not the stacks of rocks. Mountaineering has dangers. Accept the dangers, know them, and be prepared to deal with them. Don't try to turn the mountains into city parks. Derek's accident on the Bells was due to loose rock. Should we begin calling for MRA to haul up bags of cement and lengths of rebar to secure all the loose sections on the route?
Remember what your knees are for.
http://www.hikingintherockies.com
User avatar
highpilgrim
Posts: 3186
Joined: 3/14/2008
14ers: 58 
13ers: 84 1
Trip Reports (1)
 

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by highpilgrim »

Jim Davies wrote:That sounds like the old "building roads creates more traffic" argument, which I've never bought into. Well-marked routes don't cause problems, IMO, poorly-marked routes do. Lenny Joyner might be alive today if there were better cairns on this route.
How many day hikers that don't belong there climb Longs because the sense of "safety" implied by those bullseyes?

I think Longs has the largest list of fatalities of any mountain in the state, and that's part of the reason IMO.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson

Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
Dick Derkase
User avatar
iceman
Posts: 314
Joined: 12/24/2006
14ers: 9 
Trip Reports (3)
 

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by iceman »

I agree that MRA evaluating the route and making climbers aware of the issues is a good idea. Cleaning up misleading cairns and helping to identify the standard/safest route up a peak may save a climbers or a SAR members life.
Once MRA begins to maintain a route they also begin to take on liability for any flaws in that route.
Has CFI taken on liability by making the trails more accessible and route finding easier on 14ers?

I'm not saying MRA or any SAR organization should take this on, but if they are willing to, to possibly lessen the number of times they have to send members and pilots up there, it may not be a bad idea.
User avatar
Neil
Posts: 733
Joined: 6/6/2006
14ers: 41 
13ers: 25
Trip Reports (2)
 

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by Neil »

CO Native wrote:That's a very tricky proposal. Once MRA begins to maintain a route they also begin to take on liability for any flaws in that route. It wouldn't be long before someone sued them over an incident of getting off route and hurt.
This. I agree 100%. Also, to expand upon CO Native's point (an certainly NOT putting words in his mounth), not only are too many people who don't know what they're doing stacking rocks, but too many people who don't know what they're doing are on these difficult 14ers. Mountaineering is a lifelong dedication to learning and honing a certain skill set, which includes route finding, wilderness survival, meteorology, first aid (at minimum), recognizing objective danger, traveling with the right equipment and knowing how to use it, snow travel, and avalanche awareness, among others, along with less tangible skills like communication, honesty (with yourself and group), critical and analytical thought, and the ability to objectively asses a wide variety of objective and subjective dangers at a rapid pace. Even on harder 14ers that many consider a walk-up, these skills require years of apprenticeship and study to learn, even longer to master. The proliferation of those hiking all the 14ers (and beyond) in a year or two without any prior knowledge, education, or apprenticesihp not only endangers such climbers, but climbers around them (less awareness of loose terrain and the consequences thereof, etc.). Just because hikers return to their car safely does not mean the hike was conducted safely. By no means am I an authority on this subject -- we have far more talented and experienced hikers and climbers on this site. However, as someone who started this sport at the age of 8 (I'm 34 now), I recognize the value -- for myself, the safety of the community, and the preservation of the mountains -- of taking the time to learn the judgment, skills, and awareness necessary to be a competant, self-reliant mountaineer.

The CFI should exist to preserve the pristine nature of 14ers (to the extent possible) and protect them from over-use by trail construction and restoration, not to replace the judgment and competency of a mountaineer or to keep us out of danger. Further, MRA (and other S&R teams) should be utilized by mountaineers in true and immediate distress encountered despite their best efforts of self-reliance and self-rescue -- obejecive dangers cannot be entirely overcome. Like the CFI, it is NOT the job of S&R teams to be a stand-in for the good judgment, analysis, and skills mountaineers should have.

My sincere apologies if this comes across as arrogant. I'm usually someone who holds my mouth, but I've become increasingly disturbed by some practices I've seen in the mountains over the past few years and simply want to voice those concerns. I welcome any thoughts, whether in agreement or disagreement, or telling me to hit the road, jerk!
Last edited by Neil on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
"On the edge of the porch in the warm evening night
Throwing the bone for the dog I see two passing lights
Well, I wonder where that driver's bound
Is there someone, somewhere, someway out there that I've not found"
-Driving Song
User avatar
DaveSwink
Posts: 837
Joined: 9/21/2006
14ers: 37  12 
13ers: 4
Trip Reports (6)
 

Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Post by DaveSwink »

Neil wrote:
CO Native wrote:Mountaineering is a lifelong dedication to learning and honing a certain skill set, which included route finding, wilderness survival, meteorology, first aid (at minimum), recognizing objective danger, traveling with the right equipment and knowing how to use it, snow travel, and avalanche awareness, among others, along with less tangible skills like communication, honesty (with yourself and group), critical and analytical thought, and the ability to objectively asses a wide variety of objective and subjective dangers at a rapid pace. Even on harder 14ers that many consider a walk-up, these skill require years of apprenticeship and study to learn, even longer to master.
Well said, Neil. =D>
Post Reply