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Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Need a climbing partner? Trying to form a hiking group for an outing?
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby geojed » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:13 am

astrobassman wrote:I might be able to make this, but would have to do it as a day trip from Denver. The weather looks a bit too crappy to stay closer to home. What time is everyone starting from Gibson Creek TH? Anyone else in a similar situation that wants to carpool?


We are meeting at the Ken Caryl P-n-R at 2AM for a TH start at 5AM. The plan is to do it as a day trip. If you could come and could drive that would be great as my Pathfinder is getting pretty full. :shock:
• It's by getting away from life that we can see it most clearly... It's by depriving ourselves of the myriad of everyday experiences that we renew our appreciation for them...I've learned from my experiences in the mountains that I love life. — Dave Johnston
• Mountains are not climbed merely to reach a geographical location — but as personal and spiritual challenges to the participants. — David Stein
• The best climber in the world is the one who’s having the most fun.— Alex Lowe
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Matt Lemke » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:31 am

Today...5-9 inches
Tomorrow...sunny and blustery

Bring on the trailbreaking!
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby aaronmojica » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:28 am

I'm in. I traced the proposed route on my topos, the 5er seems ambitious, may join the less insane group. I'll be coming up 69 from the South if anyone along that route needs a ride. Gibson Creek 5am! (I have extra snowshoes)

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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Marmot72 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:32 pm

I was looking forward to a TR on this...did you guys make it?
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Matt Lemke » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:36 pm

We just made Spread Eagle except for Abe who also made Cloud.
Winds were ungodly :(
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Upstate Hiker » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:55 am

Hi All,

I wasn't on this trip but after reading the blog post that I've included below I am very disappointed in this group. I know I have friends that I will upset by saying this, but what the f#ck were you guys thinking! I am so upset that you would take out a noob who was totally unprepared -- both gearwise and with zero knowledge of winter mountaineering. Someone should have checked to make sure that everyone in the group was prepared and could complete the summit safely. I'm sorry Sarah, but you should not have been allowed to leave the trailhead. Sarah had a personal responsibility to be more prepared, but the more experienced members of the trip are also accountable. I mean for Christ sake, she was eating snow! When I was a noob, more experienced members of this community looked out for me and taught me a lot of what I know. That is part of what I love about this forum. What a major let down! Thank you, Brian, for once again being awesome. I will always be glad to be your partner and friend.

http://sarahstanleyinspired.com/2012/03/06/winter-mountaineering-adventure-recap-more-than-just-endurance/

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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby FireOnTheMountain » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:25 am

This is such a touchy subject and I have seen it come up on the forum but for the first time I was part of it. Thats the problem with these huge group gatherings and why I stay away from them.

What I learned from this trip is that it is wise to find out who is not very experienced and make sure they are well equipped for the endeavor. Sarah's sheer badassness got her down safely although she still did not come out unscathed. Also, sorry to say, but getting lost did not help her and Brian out either.

The biggest thing I can take away from this trip is to make sure everyone is prepared. It does somewhat fall on the organizer to make sure that people know what they are getting into. After the fact, when I saw the shoes Sarah was wearing and the gloves she had on I felt horrible.

I don't know what else to say without stepping on people's toes and looking like an ass but the truth of the matter is that Sarah was ill-equipped for the trip (and she admitted that afterwards also). That could be my fault for instance for not looking down at her shoes but being that it was early morning and cold I did not think to check on my fellow climber's preparedness and therein lies my lesson.
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby ultragirl » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:13 am

First time posting on here, but since this thread is about me, I figured I had better chime in :D

First, I want to say that I take full responsibility for my actions. I don't expect anyone to hold my hand. I don't blame anyone but myself.

Second, if you read what my recap, you will know that I said that having endurance means nothing if you don't have the right gear [for a winter climb]. Looking back, this is probably my biggest mistake. I'm pretty good at athletic endurance events, and because of that think I can do anything. But that doesn't mean I can conquer a winter summit without the right gear. Toughness doesn't mean much when you can't feel your feet/toes/fingers :) (But I am glad I was tough/determined because I wasn't if I would've made it back if I hadn't been.)

Third, I want to thank Brian for sticking with me. And for giving me his gloves to get back down. My fingers would probably be in worse shape if it wasn't for his kindness.

Fourth, I will winter climb again- BUT with the proper gear. I understand what TO wear and what NOT to wear :) I hope I'll have some people that will still want to join me :)

Fifth, I am recovering/healing the best I can. I had acupuncture yesterday and that helped. Feeling is slowly coming back.

Lastly, although it was a pretty brutal day for me, I am thankful for the opportunity to experience everything I did. I have new appreciation for the sport. I realized that it all comes down to what seems like simple things (proper gloves, gators, boots) but that can make the difference between life and death. Kind of like life.

If anyone has questions, please contact me directly!

peace, sweat, love: life
Sarah

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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby madbuck » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:41 am

ultragirl wrote:If you don't have the right gear [for a winter climb]. Looking back, this is probably my biggest mistake. I'm pretty good at athletic endurance events, and because of that think I can do anything.


I don't want to sound too confrontational -- it'd be better to chat in person over a beer or something.
But I don't think it's just "the right gear" and "endurance."

Endurance events are mostly about maximizing probability of success in a controlled environment. The "success" metric in backcountry endeavors is mitigating risk. This is even more true in groups, where mitigating risk is important for everyone's safety. Calling SAR is thankfully sometimes an option, but increases their risk as well and would also represent a failure in execution if it occurred in a preventable situation.
Having a map, studying it ahead of time, and knowing the route you're on is a start. So is basic snow science and being familiar with the snowpack. Hiking safely off-trail is another skill that is different than ultrarunning. Then, on top of that, is being prepared gear-wise for the climb and the environment.

This all comes with experience.

I think it's important to mention because the real lesson here is experience. With warmer hands, feet, and non-frozen water -- what about the next 4 peaks? What about cornices, making decisions about glissading, making route adjustments based on snow and possibly changing weather?

Again, this will all come with experience -- but the first step is to be humble and acknowledge one's limitations. Best of luck in future endeavors!

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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Monster5 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:55 am

Sounds like a lesson was learned and responsibility taken where it is due - with the hiker. No need to armchair mountaineer here and raise the flags (multiple ones, for that matter).

It isn't like Geojed failed to inform everybody on the nature of the hike in his weekly forum assault. Nor is it feasible in a group setting to inspect and pass judgement on every body at the TH. It isn't up to other hikers (on a non-technical route) to babysit each other. If somebody feels they may not be prepared, it is their personal responsibility to inform others and get prepared.

Congrats on the tenacity and experience, Sarah.
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Upstate Hiker » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:59 am

@ Sarah.... I'm glad you are recovering and that Brian was there for you.

In all honestly, mountaineering is a specialized sport requiring more than just the correct gear. There is an unbelievable amount of knowledge and skill that goes into backcountry sports; particularly winter summits. I am humbled by how little I know regardless of how much time I devote to learning about this sport. Endurance and athleticism is not enough. I often opt out of trips that I don't have the skill level to complete and have turned back from summit attempts before things became dangerous. A lot of the forum members are talented bikers and/or runners, and they would all acknowledge that while this helps; it is not everything. Not many people will have the cojones to say this, but equating our sport to nothing more than endurance and gear is a tad bit insulting. Before your next winter attempt, please do some reading and talk to more experienced individuals. Snow travel, winter survival, avy training, orienteering and wilderness first aid are areas you should at least have some knowledge in. Relying on others instead of doing your homework is not cool, but I appreciate your acknowledgment that you made some poor choices. At minimum, get a copy of Freedom of the Hills and read it cover to cover. REI also does a great job at offering free education to the public.

I hope you continue your pursue our beautiful mountains and feel free to PM me whenever you need some help. I don't want to be discouraging -- I'd just like to hear your next trip report say that you had fun and were safe. We need more girls out there getting it!

Good luck!

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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby geojed » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:03 pm

This is the only post I shall make on this.

I've resisted responding in order to prevent another epic Jed-bashing, but I feel I should lay out some pertinent info.

Sarah contacted me through the 14ers Facebook page since I posted on there regarding this hike. She said this would be her first Winter climb. I was really concerned that she wouldn't know what to bring for a Winter climb, so over several days leading up to the climb we PM'd and texted back and forth about what gear she should bring. I informed her that the forecast was for -1F w/ 20-30mph winds with LOTS of fresh snow (the forecast said 10-20" was supposed to have fallen, in actuality it was about 1-2"). She said she had a warm ski jacket and ski pants and hat, so I tried to think of gear that she would need that she might not think of since this was her first Winter climb.

I told her to bring:

Snowshoes,
waterproof/warm gloves,
waterproof/warm boots,
goggles,
gaiters,
and to wear two pairs of warm wool socks.


She didn't have ski goggles so I borrowed some from my next door neighbor.

She didn't have snowshoes, so I recommended that she rent some from REI, but then Aaronmojica had said he had an extra pair, so I PM'd him about her borrowing his extra pair of snowshoes and poles.

Unfortunately, she mistakenly thought the "gaiters" on her ski pants would be sufficient for this climb, and that her layered gloves would be sufficient. It turned out that neither pair of gloves she had were waterproof.

Also when I texted her about warm/waterproof boots she said that Keen had just sent her a pair and that they should work. Well, Keen does make winter snow boots, but the "boots" she had were actually just normal low-top, non-waterproof, meshy trailrunners, which I didn't realize that's what she actually had on until at the end of the day when she got back to the cars and I was helping break off the ice balls that had formed on her sock cuffs.

I also guessed correctly that she'd be bringing a Camelback, so I reminded her that she needs to remember to blow out the tube after every drink or the tube will freeze. I even demonstrated at the TH how I push the tube all the way back into the bladder sleeve in my backpack to keep the tube from freezing.

Maybe I should've gone through a more thorough gear check with her at the TH, but I thought I had communicated/recommended all of the gear that she would need for a Winter climb.

On the ascent, Brian texted me saying that he and Sarah were sticking together on the climb up so I knew she wasn’t left alone. Kudos to Brian!!! =D> =D> =D>

While we were descending I gave her some hand warmers and an extra pair of wool gloves I had. They probably didn’t do much as her other gloves were wet from snow.

Missing the bootpack trail on the way down and ending up in the bottom of the gully was really unfortunate. They weren’t the only ones to miss it as Matt Lemke did the same thing and ended up post-holing down Gibson Creek until reaching our snowshoe track from on the way up. I tried texting and calling Brian several times to get status updates while they were coming down, and was worried sick until I finally heard from Brian after they reached the snowshoe trench.

I really feel bad for how things turned out for you Sarah, your perseverance and will to finish is something I am in awe off. I’m not sure I would have done so well in similar circumstances. I hope you recover quickly and look forward to hiking/climbing with you again in the future.

Cheers,

Jed


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• It's by getting away from life that we can see it most clearly... It's by depriving ourselves of the myriad of everyday experiences that we renew our appreciation for them...I've learned from my experiences in the mountains that I love life. — Dave Johnston
• Mountains are not climbed merely to reach a geographical location — but as personal and spiritual challenges to the participants. — David Stein
• The best climber in the world is the one who’s having the most fun.— Alex Lowe
• Why do I climb the mountain? Because I'm in love! — The Captain

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