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If you want to have an off leash dog...

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby jameseroni » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:20 am

prestone818 wrote:Image





seriously though. i dont have an issue with the collar. you spank kids, the dog gets a mild zap, its life- learn from your mistakes.


HAH.

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby coloradokevin » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:28 am

Oman wrote:Years ago I hiked with a guy who had used an electronic collar to train his lab for pheasant hunting. By the time I hiked with him, the dog was well trained and wearing a dummy (non-charged) collar, but still had a quirk: Every time the dog spotted a rabbit, he yelped and looked back at his master.

The guy said his dog had become convinced that rabbits shocked him.


To me that sounds like there was some flaw in the training that the dog received with that collar. Of course, I don't train hunting dogs, so I'm not sure what techniques are used in doing so. More than anything else, I was concerned with making sure that my dog would return to me when called, every time, regardless of the distraction she was interested in (it's a safety issue for the dog, and is the one command that just can't be ignored).

For the others on here who have raised some concerns:

There's little doubt that improper use of an e-collar can have very bad results. Similarly, misuse of a slip collar or a firm scolding can also have bad results. Before any training tool can be effectively used, I think the trainer needs to have a general understanding of the principles of effective dog training. I'm no expert on the subject, but I've had dogs my whole life, and I have a general understanding of what works well, and what does not.

My dog is happy and well adjusted, and I don't feel even the slightest amount of regret for using the e-collar as part of her training. My dog-to-owner and owner-to-dog relationship has only improved in the past month or so!

Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby gonzalj » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:03 pm

coloradokevin wrote:
Oman wrote:Years ago I hiked with a guy who had used an electronic collar to train his lab for pheasant hunting. By the time I hiked with him, the dog was well trained and wearing a dummy (non-charged) collar, but still had a quirk: Every time the dog spotted a rabbit, he yelped and looked back at his master.

The guy said his dog had become convinced that rabbits shocked him.


To me that sounds like there was some flaw in the training that the dog received with that collar. Of course, I don't train hunting dogs, so I'm not sure what techniques are used in doing so. More than anything else, I was concerned with making sure that my dog would return to me when called, every time, regardless of the distraction she was interested in (it's a safety issue for the dog, and is the one command that just can't be ignored).

For the others on here who have raised some concerns:

There's little doubt that improper use of an e-collar can have very bad results. Similarly, misuse of a slip collar or a firm scolding can also have bad results. Before any training tool can be effectively used, I think the trainer needs to have a general understanding of the principles of effective dog training. I'm no expert on the subject, but I've had dogs my whole life, and I have a general understanding of what works well, and what does not.

Amen to that.

My dog is happy and well adjusted, and I don't feel even the slightest amount of regret for using the e-collar as part of her training. My dog-to-owner and owner-to-dog relationship has only improved in the past month or so!

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby Waggs » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:32 pm

I'm currently going through the puppy training process as well. The Fletcher outing was my pups first group hike, and I thought he did pretty well in a highly social environment. (Ok, done braggin')

To me, this has been the key to the training:

coloradokevin wrote: My dog-to-owner and owner-to-dog relationship...


My attitude is that he's not a pet but a companion and a partner. Also interesting, is that I've used the concept(s) that I read in the book Whale Done - The Power of Positive Relationships through much of the training effort.

Waggs

Edit - And a lot of patience.
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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby DaveSwink » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:52 pm

[quote="coloradokevin"]
Respectfully, I don't believe that's a valid test for a number of reasons. First, at least with my collar level 5 isn't simply two times as powerful as level 2.5.

Again, as I said in my original post, the collar is used mostly as an attention getter.

Going a step further with this, I don't believe that everything in life needs to be built around positive-only reinforcement.

Wild dogs are disciplined by their own pack members.

Is a jerk on a collar around the neck really any less stimulating than a low-level static shock?

There is little doubt that this tool needs to be carefully used by an owner who is willing to learn how to use it properly. But, in the right hands it can work very well, and it worked extremely well in my case. [/quote]

Thanks for a well-reasoned response. Sorry for editing the quote for size. You obviously had concerns about actually injuring your dog and had already tested the collar. I can tell that you care for your dog and are trying to do the best for it. Dogs (wild or otherwise) [u]are[/u] disciplined by the alpha with mild nips and they appreciate a structured environment.

I have trained two labrador retrievers that were very challenging because of their high energy levels so I can appreciate that an extra attention-getter could really help. Electronic collars stuck me as a hurtful shortcut that avoids real training, especially after I tried one on myself at a high setting. Your thoughtful approach and positive results will give me cause to reconsider.

[quote="jameseroni"]
Kevin let comments like dswink's take care of itself. Hopefully most people will read it as foolhardy and ignorance about the issue. [b]By his reasoning we should stop using all effective means of control over animals. [/b]
But if your dog could talk, wouldn't he cry out against this inhumane torture!? Well I got news. Your dog can't talk, he's not a human, he's a DOG. By the way, animals like structure and are loyal to their owners. [/quote]

James, please chill. It's a conversation. I welcome your thoughts on my post but you really don't have to falsify my reasoning to make your points. I doubt our thoughts on the subject are actually very far apart.

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby natedogg » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:06 pm

Just to throw this out there....

When I trained my dog with the collar, most of them have an audible button that makes a beep, that you use before shocking the dog. I didn't really find that useful, as you're not always going to have him collared, nor have a beeping sound. So when i trained my dog, I used a series of whistle commands. For example, one loud short whistle means turn your ass on a dime and come to me. 2 short whistles is stay. 1 long one means double time it. There's a few more, but I trained him according to my needs and wants. But I figured, you'll always be able to whistle..... and your dog will associate that whistle with getting shocked. Plus side, you can use your mouth, of if you're out in the rolling hills, you can use a good hunting whistle and he'll still respond to the same sound if he's 200yds out.

Like the comment above with the lab, the dog will get it heavily embedded within him. To this day, it's been 2 years since he's seen the collar, but when I crack out a short whistle, he turns on a dime, no matter whats tempting him and heads my way.

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby sevenvii » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:11 am

A friend of mine just asked me about this technique over the weekend. I have never used it before, but had read/heard about its positive results. I will be sure to inform her of another success story.

Seems it would be a lot cheaper solution just to wire the harness in to the 240 line, and have someone flip the breaker when a shock was needed :twisted:

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby cwm191 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:59 am

I have never personally used this with my dogs, but have seen generally positive results. I know many Schutzhund trainers that use this to great effect. As with many methods, it's not for every trainer or every dog, but used properly can be very effective.
Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain. - Friedrich Schiller

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby SeracZack » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:45 am

My dog has an electronic collar. I have him trained for bird hunting, and I believe it is a fantastic tool. Professional trainers use them, and I have used them with great success. If anyone wants some more info, PM me, and I'll be happy to answer the questions that I can. Just remember, I am not a professional trainer.

Also, I word on how dogs perceive pain: My dog has an amazingly high tolerance for pain and is extremely energetic. He was wearing a pinch collar and a professional trainer had to throw his body weight into the leash and snap it back for the dog to respond (guy ~200 lbs, dog 65 lbs).

And yes, I have shocked myself with ALL the levels on that collar so I know what it feels like.
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.
-Helen Keller

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby sevenvii » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:05 pm

Do you taste all the food before you give it to your dog, you are cruel if you dont! :wink:

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby randalmartin » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:22 pm

Kevin, big kudos to you for taking a very thoughtful and considered approach to training your dog and for sharing with the community. =D>

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Re: If you want to have an off leash dog...

Postby cheeseburglar » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:42 am

I don't like my dogs well behaved. I want them to have personality. And they do.
If you are a wimp who gets scared of a dog running on a trail, what will you do when you meet a wild animal?
I think all the folks who are scared of dogs should come hike with me and my dogs. You probably just don't know how to interact with our better halfs.
Which is a shame. Dogs have been assisting humans for a very long time and were never leashed or shocked into submission until a minority of people who are scared of dogs pushed through leash laws. I believe it is coercion by a minority. Still waiting to get that ticket for an unleashed dog... and my day to challenge the law in court.
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