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Pack Winterizing

Info on gear, conditioning, and preparation for hiking/climbing. Gear Classifieds
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Postby rlw49 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:27 pm

LMAO
Crack me up, Dawg
Down, dirty, and kickin it
Doomsday is just a blink of an eye away

At least that's what homey Al Gore says!

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Postby CO Native » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:02 pm

rlw49 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't heated water freeze faster than room temp or cold water. Something to do with change in entropy. That doesn't take into account the insulation. Just being picky.

No. The conditions in which heated water freezes sooner than room temp or cold water must be ideal for this to happen. One of the key contributors to this effect is evaporation from hot water occuring faster, but sealed in a bottle this condition is removed. Another factor is the hot container needs to melt some surrounding ice so that the ice forms to the container creating greater surface area contact and increasing conduction heat loss. The insulating jacket will eliminate that, plus most peoples freezers are frost free anyway.
Remember what your knees are for.
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Postby MountainHiker » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:42 pm

rlw49 wrote:Any luck with the handwarmers to keep things in the pack liquid?

I've used the handwarmers and bodywarmers on a few occasions. I know it's not a lot of heat but I figure if I have my water bottles in the most sheltered part of the pack with a couple body warmers any heat should help.

I've not had all my water freeze completely solid but I've had to smash ice away from the opening with the lid on many occasions.

For overnight keeping water bottles in the sleeping bag with you can be the difference between frozen or not.

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Postby Scott P » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:45 am

WATERBOTTLE TEST

Left to right:

Walmart thermos, Nalgene bottle with OR insulating jacket, REI thermos.

Image

Initial measured water temperature just before placement in the freezer was 69.8F. 850 ml of water was used for all items to prevent cracking of bottle during expansion.

Image

The bottles were placed in the freezer at 8:07 PM October 11 2007. A digital high/low thermometer accurate to 0.1 degrees F was used to record the freezer temperature.

By morning it was found that the freezer temperature stayed between 3.5F and 7.2F throughout the night.

Image

Average winter temperatures on Pike Peak are displayed in the following summary of the weather statistics:

http://www.summitpost.org/custom-object ... stics.html

Of course it is often colder than average. Displayed below are some of the temperatures I have camped in the local area for each month of the year:

http://www.summitpost.org/custom-object ... ckies.html

It is evident that the recorded temperature of the freezer is fairly typical in temperature when compared with the weather statistics on the highest Colorado mountains.

The bottles were all removed from freezer at 7:22 AM on October 12 2007. This is 11 hours 15 minutes after their placement. As per my experience 10-14 hours is a typical time to climb in a day for winter ascents.

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Results:

Nalgene bottle with OR insulating jacket

Notice that the Nalgene bottle (which was placed upside down in the freezer is frozen. It still did better than expected. Approximately 40% of the water in the bottle was frozen. The remaining portion of unfrozen water was at about 32F. Since I’ve had water freeze completely solid on climbs, it shows how cold those days were on those particular climbs.

Walmart thermos

This did surprisingly well. I have actually had water turn slushy in it on very cold days, but for this test the water stayed well above freezing. The measured temperature at the end of the test was 42.4F, well above the freezing threshold.

Image

REI thermos

This is the best performer. I have never had water freeze while using this product. For this test the measured temperature at the end of the test was 50.4F, well above freezing.

Image

Recommendation

For cold winter climbs, do not rely solely on Nalgene bottles and insulating jackets unless you have them close to your body the entire time. At a minimum, take at least one high quality thermos (such as the REI one) to make sure you have water available after the Nalgene bottle freezes.
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So, that's my recommendation. Anyway, I have the day off and it's my wife's birthday, and assume she doesn't want to spend it testing waterbottles, so I'm done for now. Later I'll do one with a coat wrappend around it, etc. and at different time elapses. :wink:
I'm slow and fat. Unfortunately, those are my good qualities.

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Postby rlw49 » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:43 am

Scott
Thanks for the comparison, gives me some insight into what I need to use. Please make sure Kessler doesn't try and emulate his father by doing a study in the freezer. He'll probably be an engineer also. Enjoy your day off, hopefully the weather will cooperate.

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Postby firsttracks » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:24 am

Great job putting this experiment together!

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Postby Igloo Ed » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:16 pm

firsttracks wrote:Great job putting this experiment together!

Last winter I took enough fresh salad along on my Yellowstone trip that I had a salad all five nights of the trip.

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Postby CO Native » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:58 pm

g wrote:For some reason, I think Scott's latest post would be popular one of those sites like Digg, Slashdot, etc. :P

Is that REI thermos really bomber-proof inside? I've looked at thermoses at Walmart and there always seems to be a couple with shattered insides, presumably from customers dropping them on the floor, or perhaps from rough shipping.


Are you really comparing Walmart vs REI???

The REI thermos is a vacuum thermos. There is no liner to break. The only thing that can go wrong is a puncture that allows air into the insulating cavity.
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Postby Igloo Ed » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:17 pm

g wrote:Are you sure the REI thermos doesn't have a liner, smart guy? :P It must, since that's how vacuum thermoses work. But hopefully it's not fragile like Walmart's.

The fancy smancy thermos of today is a double walled stainless steel one. The vacuum is between the two layers of steel. Like the Stanley bottle that many workers have used for years but lighter.

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