Thunderstorm near South Arapaho yesterday

[procomsignathid]

Hey all, just posting to get some feedback / advice.

I've been leading a few conditioning hikes this year with coworkers to get them geared up for some 14er bids. The main goal is to get people out to the mountains who might not have otherwise. Yesterday we headed up South Arapaho peak...

Those with us yesterday: My wife, two of my coworkers, my buddy/his wife, and a friend of theirs (7 of us total). For the friend-of-a-friend (let's call her Jane) this was to be her first high-altitude peak. My buddy & his wife had been up S. Arapaho a couple times before, so they knew what was in-store. My buddy asked Jane if she wanted them to stay with her on the way up, she said no (I'm not 100% convinced this is a fair question to ask someone who doesn't have a lot of experience, more on that later).

We left the TH around 6:30-7 (the slower hikers set off earlier), and all of us were able to summit by around 10:45. Weather was pleasant up to that point, low wind, cool temperature. Weather reports called for low % of thunderstorms around 2pm, so we felt pretty solid. We did see some clouds / virga in the distance, so we only spent a few minutes at the summit.

About 5-10 minutes down from the summit, we started getting hail, then we started hearing nearby thunder. It was "booms" rather than "cracks" so I'm not sure how close it was (couldn't see lightning, might have been over by Audubon or Navajo), but it was loud enough for us to high-tail it down the peak. Everyone got down safe, but it was pretty scary for a lot us (myself included). Definitely a rude introduction to the high peaks for Jane.

Now, on to the part I could use some insight into:

Everyone met up at the saddle on the way up, but both my wife and Jane were a little unsure on the rocky terrain on the summit mound and were fairly exhausted at that point, so it was slow going. As a result, I stayed with them both on the way up to help with the route-finding. This put us on the summit about 20-30 minutes after the rest of the party. As a result, we also left the summit about 5-10 minutes later than the rest of the group.

As to what is bothering me... I'm very aware of my wife's capabilities, and despite knowing the final bit would be a challenge, it was within her abilities. When the s**t hit the fan on the way down, she was capable of kicking it into high-gear (and did). However, I felt as though I basically inherited the well-being and safety of Jane (who I'd never hiked with before). As it happens, she was in a bad state on the way down (didn't have the right gear for rain/hail, hiking poles, etc.), and had to go very slow to avoid injury. Her legs were completely spent from the effort on the way up, and were wobbly as a result. I stayed with her & gave her my hiking pole & rain jacket to keep her warmer and more stable, but the going was slow... I believe it added another 30 minutes or so to my exposure to the thunderstorm.

Have any of you been in a similar situation? I feel a little torqued w/ my buddy for not helping his friend up the mountain, and making sure she was prepared from a gear/conditioning standpoint (they've done S. Arapaho a couple times prior, so they know the peak). That said, I don't think it would have made sense that he come back up the mountain when the thunderstorm hit to check on Jane, given that I was with her (no sense in us both getting in danger). It may be that it was just an unfortunate / unlucky scenario and I just need to vent, but I'm curious on other perspectives on the matter.

I am kicking myself over a few things: I wasn't paying close-enough attention to the weather / put too much faith in the forecast. My wife & Jane were about equal pace on the way up, in my mind I assumed they were experiencing the same challenge (I was attributing their slowness to cardio / thin air). As it turned out, my wife's leg muscles were fine, Jane's were not... She needed a longer rest than we allowed for at the top.

Other hike leaders out there-- Any tips on getting good information from those you're leading? I've found many situations where *after* a hike I found out from an individual that the pace was too fast, the terrain made them uncomfortable, they experienced an injury, had a headache, weren't hydrated enough, etc., where during the hike they said they were "fine/OK/having a good time". I don't know if this is because they don't want to "be a bother" or it's embarrassing, etc.

Anyhow, mainly ranting, but any insight/advice/similar stories are appreciated!

[AlexeyD]

First of all, glad everyone is OK! While I don't have a ton of experience leading large groups, I would say that the perhaps the main thing to do when you're not sure of everyone's abilities is to assume that everything will go MUCH more slowly than if you were just doing it with a few people you know well. This means not only allowing more time for the ascent, but for the descent as well (i.e. not only an earlier start time, but an earlier target summit time, and earlier turnaround time). This might sound a bit Monday morning quarterbacking, but, personally, I would say that a 10:45 summit time with a larger (ish) group that includes members whose abilities you don't know of, during the summer monsoon in the Rockies, is actually a bit on the late side. As you saw that day, storms can form so quickly that you can't possibly have time to get down in time to avoid them, so the only way to avoid them is to be down below treeline before they even start forming. I guess to sum it up, my main thing in that sort of leadership capacity would be to a huge stickler for giving the group way more time than you'd typically need, insisting on a true alpine start for any high-elevation summit, and if your group has a problem with that, well, they can find a new trip leader!

[bergsteigen]

First off - that storm over South Arapaho was pretty weird. I was over at Diamond Lake across the way from S. Arapaho and started noticing dark clouds building around 10/11am. Those were mainly cloud to cloud lightning, hence the booms. Funny, as soon as I was near the trailhead around 12:30, it cleared up to the west.

I've lead quite a few large groups on the 14ers and other peaks. It can be very difficult to know everyone's abilities as well as keep track of everyone while on the hike. Thankfully for the trips I've lead, I've gotten to look at most people's peak lists to get an inkling of their abilities. But on occasion, a friend of a forum member attends, so they are a complete unknown. There have also been individuals with known health problems on the trip, but they have always let me and others know about them. I typically had a co-leader that would play sweeper and take up the rear to keep track of stragglers. There's a way to do it that doesn't make people feel self conscious - avoiding the "I'm Ok, don't slow down and hike with me" problem.

While you may feel responsible for getting Jane down, it's not really your responsibility. Jane did not pay you to guide her, so there is no legal responsibility. It is commendable that you took care of her, as most people *should* do, if you are the leader. Without the storm, there wouldn't have been an issue. Until you have hiked a lot, it can be hard to say what the body can handle, so Jane may not have been able to communicate what was going on.

The best you can do in the future is ask more questions to their background. What kind of hikes have they been on, how long, how much elevation gain, terrain, etc. Carry extra water, electrolytes and gear for others - if you feel responsible for them.

[peter303]

First, I do do an easier hike before anything harder to get know my companions temperment and abilities.
In most cases bagging a 14er, even the easiest ones, would not be a first hike to get to know someone.

Second as I've accumulated assets and repsonsibilies in life, I've shied away from leading any sort of trip with people I dont know well.
A few, rare, well publicized lawsuits turned bad convinced me such. I used to lead more adventurous trips in the past for college outdoor groups. Due to the legal situation the formal outdoor groups now have fairly draconian leadership training and signup requirements. The informal meetup.com culture has been mostly spared so far. i believe it is just a matter of time.

[procomsignathid]

Thanks for the replies all.

The idea of starting earlier I think is very sound advice, especially in a group scenario. It's on the "err on the side of caution" side which I think is prudent. As for asking more about hiking background, also prudent.

Peter in this case, Jane was brought along by my friend (not technically part my of "my" group), but I just wasn't prepared to leave her up there given the circumstances.

Could you describe the lawsuits you're speaking of? If I'm taking on potentially legal responsibility for these guys, I'd like to understand that better.