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James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby COJoe » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:26 am

I might get scalded here... but...

If this guy is legit, and he is the property owner free and clear without any easments or previously agreed to stipulations on the use of the property and he is not interfeering with anothers rights or causing damage in some way to neighboring property then I think he should be able to do what he pleases. It is also a slippery sloap for government to step in and dictate uses of property (even though this is by far the norm-- we have allowed our personal liberties to be actioned off wholesale). Can you hear the underlying libertarian tones?

If it is his private property and you are using it and he is maintaining the lot from his private funds he has every right to charge. Perhaps it would have been more neighborly to request donations to help with upkeep...or there might have been other avenues he could have recieved funding through...

By the way... if he's only charging $5 a vehicle he will never raise enough for parking expantion let alone annual maintenance right? It does sound a bit shady to me 8) . And on another note...Down around Wrigley Field in Chicago guys will park you in someone's front lawn, you pay them, they take off, you come back and your car has been towed... I've seen some nasty arguments/fights down around there.

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby pw » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:41 am

smitchell333 wrote:
fiddlinclimber wrote:What parking lot is that? Not the one at the trailhead to St. Mary's "Glacier" is it?


Yes precisely


In the summer at least James Peak is accessible from Loch Lomond, although the four wheel road up there is a bit of a chore to drive. This is also a shorter hike than going from St. Marys. Paying to park in the mountains just seems wrong....

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby glacierPaul » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:24 am

Hello all,
I am the new owner of lot 62 Winterland Subdivision Unit 4, or the small parking area to the left past the glacier trailhike. For everyones info: as soon as you you hit 7 1/2 miles up Fall River Road you are in a private subdivision. There are access points thru our subdivision, but no public parking. Even the trailhead itself is a subdivision road. Our community has gratiously allowed people the access, well some of us, but things are changing. I purchased the lot for $13,000, spent $1,500 having it rezoned and an official development plan approved by the Clear Creek County Commissioners to allow paid parking. I am going to create more spaces on the lot, provide a porta-potty,trash container, pole w/doggie bags, appropriate signage, and a self-pay fee station similar to the national/state parks, with the fee at $5.00 per vehicle. I will keep the lot maintained and open year round. My wife Erin, and I have lived here at St. Mary's for 11 years. We have long been trying to get the U.S.F.S. to do their job in making better access, parking, and facilities for the James Peak / St. Mary's Glacier, all to no avail. We only wish to make the situation better. I will update everyone with more info later as it is time to man the lot, we look forward to sharing the place we call home!
Thanks, Paul Johnson
St. Mary's Glacier Paid Parking Lot L.L.C.

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby XPLSV » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:31 am

glacierPaul wrote:Hello all,
I am the new owner of lot 62 Winterland Subdivision Unit 4, or the small parking area to the left past the glacier trailhike. For everyones info: as soon as you you hit 7 1/2 miles up Fall River Road you are in a private subdivision. There are access points thru our subdivision, but no public parking. Even the trailhead itself is a subdivision road. Our community has gratiously allowed people the access, well some of us, but things are changing. I purchased the lot for $13,000, spent $1,500 having it rezoned and an official development plan approved by the Clear Creek County Commissioners to allow paid parking. I am going to create more spaces on the lot, provide a porta-potty,trash container, pole w/doggie bags, appropriate signage, and a self-pay fee station similar to the national/state parks, with the fee at $5.00 per vehicle. I will keep the lot maintained and open year round. My wife Erin, and I have lived here at St. Mary's for 11 years. We have long been trying to get the U.S.F.S. to do their job in making better access, parking, and facilities for the James Peak / St. Mary's Glacier, all to no avail. We only wish to make the situation better. I will update everyone with more info later as it is time to man the lot, we look forward to sharing the place we call home!
Thanks, Paul Johnson
St. Mary's Glacier Paid Parking Lot L.L.C.


Paul,

Looks like everything you have done is well within your rights. I, personally, find $5 reasonable. I know many folks have parked for "free" in the past and this is a change in the direction that none of us prefer...but I can think of a lot more objectionable practices out there. Best of luck on your plans...hope it turns out as nice as it sounds.

Bernie
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It's an interglacial period...

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby rastro » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:34 am

JRfromAZ wrote:Can anyone confirm the $250 for Culebra? Not that I don't believe Scott, I just can't find any other mention of a price increase. :shock:

If the rate is $250 to climb Culebra, I can say with certainty that I will not be adding this peak to my list of summited peaks. Outrageous and ridiculous.
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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby KeithK » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:55 am

rastro wrote:
JRfromAZ wrote:Can anyone confirm the $250 for Culebra? Not that I don't believe Scott, I just can't find any other mention of a price increase. :shock:

If the rate is $250 to climb Culebra, I can say with certainty that I will not be adding this peak to my list of summited peaks. Outrageous and ridiculous.


I have to chuckle at this discussion... go back and re-read gb's trip report. He clearly states that that's what the Ranch charged THEM at the time they climbed it, because of the added maintenance and logistics of a winter ascent. They very likely did not change the standard summer rate. Calm down, everyone.
Snow is dumb.™

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby Jim Davies » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:24 am

rastro wrote:If the rate is $250 to climb Culebra, I can say with certainty that I will not be adding this peak to my list of summited peaks. Outrageous and ridiculous.

They mentioned the $250 winter fee in the info we got when we climbed last summer. It costs the ranch more to support climbers in the winter, since the groups are smaller (in summer they can get 20/day on weekends). Note that they also plowed the access road for gb's group.

If you don't like paying a use fee, Bobby Hill will probably entertain offers for the whole ranch, so you can buy it and then give it free to the climbing community. It should only run you about $25 million. In the meantime, $100 for climbing Culebra really isn't a bad deal; it's a unique place among Colorado 14ers, isolated and well-preserved.
Some people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths. -- Steven Wright

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby wasclywabbit » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:03 pm

glacierPaul wrote:Hello all,
I am the new owner of lot 62 Winterland Subdivision Unit 4, or the small parking area to the left past the glacier trailhike. For everyones info: as soon as you you hit 7 1/2 miles up Fall River Road you are in a private subdivision. There are access points thru our subdivision, but no public parking. Even the trailhead itself is a subdivision road. Our community has gratiously allowed people the access, well some of us, but things are changing. I purchased the lot for $13,000, spent $1,500 having it rezoned and an official development plan approved by the Clear Creek County Commissioners to allow paid parking. I am going to create more spaces on the lot, provide a porta-potty,trash container, pole w/doggie bags, appropriate signage, and a self-pay fee station similar to the national/state parks, with the fee at $5.00 per vehicle. I will keep the lot maintained and open year round. My wife Erin, and I have lived here at St. Mary's for 11 years. We have long been trying to get the U.S.F.S. to do their job in making better access, parking, and facilities for the James Peak / St. Mary's Glacier, all to no avail. We only wish to make the situation better. I will update everyone with more info later as it is time to man the lot, we look forward to sharing the place we call home!
Thanks, Paul Johnson
St. Mary's Glacier Paid Parking Lot L.L.C.


Paul,

Thanks for the update. I for one appreciate your efforts on two levels, the convenience of a parking lot as well as your entrepreneurial spirit. That said, there is often open hostility on this forum towards anyone who even thinks about making a dollar in the mountains. Why that should matter I don't know but don't get frustrated if you get slammed by a few malcontents here because there are many of us who will be supporting of your efforts.

Thanks again.
Ad alta per aspera: To the summit through difficulties.

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby MUni Rider » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:00 pm

It doesn't sound like the guy is trying to make a buck of us. He seems to have gotten tired of no action so he took his own time, his own expenses to improve the situation a bit and is just passing (some of) his costs on to users. Investments of $13,000 + $1,500 + future..... I don't think his $5 fee is gonna make him rich any time soon.

If we don't like it we can just go pay next years new $500 fee to hike Culebra. (just kidding). :roll:
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." (Theodore Roosevelt)

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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby Chicago Transplant » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:27 am

Thanks for the clarification Paul! I think a lot of people have always thought that lot was public land. When I was up there it wasn't properly signed and the trail access was a little confusing. Its too bad the Forest Service hasn't done anything to remedy the situation before, but I appreciate your efforts.

I know living at the base of a ski area I don't like seeing visitors illegally parked in the lots of local businesses and apartments instead of the designated skier parking, so I can understand a bit of your situation.

Culebra is a similar situation in the sense that mountain has never been public, so I don't have an ethical problem with the fee concept. If anything I just think their fees are too high. Hopefully they are putting them back into the trail, road and the guest experience.
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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby cftbq » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:04 pm

glacierPaul wrote:Hello all,
I am the new owner of lot 62 Winterland Subdivision Unit 4, or the small parking area to the left past the glacier trailhike. For everyones info: as soon as you you hit 7 1/2 miles up Fall River Road you are in a private subdivision. There are access points thru our subdivision, but no public parking. Even the trailhead itself is a subdivision road.



Well, Paul, thanks for being so up-front about this, and clearing up everyone's uncertainty. You're certainly within your legal rights, but I still have a big problem with barriers to hiking and climbing like this, which exist because the public National Forest land is so commonly girdled all around with private land. If by the FS doing its job, you mean ensuring that there are useable public access points to get back into the Forest, then I'd have to agree with you that they've usually done virtually nothing in this regard, creating or exacerbating the problem. This isn't my part of the state, and maybe I'll never really want to climb James Peak, so it might not matter to me. But this does look like a slippery slope and a very bad trend to me, and I'm going to continue to do everything I can to avoid letting anyone charge me a fee for hiking and climbing, even if it means using alternate parking areas and longer hikes.
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Re: James Peak Parking now is PAY PARKING

Postby BTL » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:07 pm

If the FS isn't remedying a trailhead situation in such a high profile area as St Marys Glacier, what exactly are they doing? Oh, wait a minute, that's right, in that area they're busy collecting the Mt Evans Rd fee. My bad.

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