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Dogs on 14ers?

Dogs, dogs and even some cats
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Let's try to keep the topics related to mountaineering, please.

Should dogs be banned from 14ers?

No
118
73%
Yes
44
27%
 
Total votes : 162
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Postby tragal » Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:14 pm

Those are all great pictures. Hey my philosophy...to each their own.
If you hike with your dog, keep your dog to yourself unless otherwise invited by someone. Same goes for you kids. Personally, I like seeing either out enjoying the mountains.

Postby Bean » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:31 pm

MrsPalmer wrote:
Bean wrote:
TalusMonkey wrote:Maybe I should put a cat in a backpack and take him to 14er summits?
Why not? People do it with their kids.


What is a 18 month old human doing going up a 14er?
Probably sleeping a lot.

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Postby Chicago Transplant » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:10 pm

My friend's dog loves the peaks he has been on, the only thing is he has no concept of distance and elevation gain. We know what we are getting ourselves into, but the last 2+ miles back down Elbert the dog was over it, he just kept looking at my friend as if to ask "are we done yet?". Of course the dog tends to hike a lot of extra miles chasing marmots and sniffing what seems to be EVERY tree on the trail!

Great pics Scott! Kessler is going to be a heck of a mountaineer! Actually he already is!

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Postby kesue22 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:48 pm

Hey Scott, those dogs are beautiful. They look like they were MADE for that kind of weather.
It is not the mountain we conquer, but ourselves.

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Postby bartspedden » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:52 pm

69Bronc wrote:
bartspedden wrote:Hmmm interesting logic... I have seen PEOPLE cause car accidents. Where PEOPLE get KILLED. Using your logic we should not allow people to drive. And by leaving you dog at home all the time your dog, nor it's owner, will ever learn one anothers personality and how to act around other people. Leashes are not the end all be all that people make them out to be. Leash INVOKE dog aggresion. Not only that but often make for a more dangerous situation for both dog and owner.


Give me a break. I don't believe that the mountains are a place for carelessness. A dog doesn't have the ability to know if it is being careless.

Your argument against my "logic" isn't an apples to apples comparison unless you place the intelligence of a human equal to that of a dog. Saying that people KILL others in car accidents is not the same as saying a dog could create a dangerous situation on a mountain because it doesn't know what it is doing. Why don't you take it further and say people have DIED because they have choked while eating a steak. Let's ban steaks, then. You are stretching the logic argument too far.

I too have a dog. He is an awesome dog and very friendly, but I still keep him on a leash whenever I go out purely out of respect for others. His leash has never made him aggressive. I agree that leashes aren't the "be all end all". Proper training is. That said, I still find it flat annoying when people let their dogs roam free. It's just plain rude, IMO. But, to each his own.


I hear you about the apples to apples logic. That makes sense. So let's try this one. I've been on numerous climbs throughtout the country where rock fall from climbers above has caused a dangerous situation. I've also been on climbs on where I've needed to rescue climbers from their own carelessness. Does this make any those people dangerous that need to be banned or leashed? maybe, but probably not. Carelessness is going to happen EVERYWHERE. I was coming off of bailed attempt on the diamond where i met a group of people who were on a memorial hike for an infant that died when the hiking backpack that it was in tipped over and fell down a cliff. Should we not let parents hike with their kids in backpacks now? To try and place the blame on dogs for creating a dangerous situation is a tough sell. It's the owners to blame, and I will always take responsibility for my dogs actions. Having hunted with my dog on numerous occassion I am certain that having a dog on leash at ALL times is only one perspective, and not mine. I'd be so psyched if there a series of tests that you and your dog could pass for varying levels of leash laws. Think about it. Some people have really well trained dogs, and some people THINK they have really well trained dogs. Why not have a state wide testing process?

bart

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Postby Devin » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:11 pm

bartspedden wrote:I hear you about the apples to apples logic. That makes sense. So let's try this one. I've been on numerous climbs throughtout the country where rock fall from climbers above has caused a dangerous situation. I've also been on climbs on where I've needed to rescue climbers from their own carelessness. Does this make any those people dangerous that need to be banned or leashed? maybe, but probably not. Carelessness is going to happen EVERYWHERE. I was coming off of bailed attempt on the diamond where i met a group of people who were on a memorial hike for an infant that died when the hiking backpack that it was in tipped over and fell down a cliff. Should we not let parents hike with their kids in backpacks now? To try and place the blame on dogs for creating a dangerous situation is a tough sell. It's the owners to blame, and I will always take responsibility for my dogs actions. Having hunted with my dog on numerous occassion I am certain that having a dog on leash at ALL times is only one perspective, and not mine. I'd be so psyched if there a series of tests that you and your dog could pass for varying levels of leash laws. Think about it. Some people have really well trained dogs, and some people THINK they have really well trained dogs. Why not have a state wide testing process?

bart


If your dog is very well trained and listens to all of your voice commands - even in a distracting environment - then that is fine. I have absolutely no problem with that.

Like you said, carelessness is going to happen everywhere - even with humans. The difference is that a human has the ability to survey a situation before hand and determine if his/her actions are going to create a less than ideal situation (albeit some humans don't do this - should they be banned? I don't know. I just hope they aren't climbing above me). Some dog owners will argue that a "their" dog can do the same thing. I don't think that is the case most of the time. My dog is only moderately "trained". We rescued him at an age of 2 years. I am still working with him, but it is a long process. But he, like a lot of dogs that I see, tend to forget about the training if a bird or a marmot jumps out. They just bolt toward the target, not paying attention to any commands.

Your idea for a series of tests for different leash laws is an interesting one. I have seen VERY well trained dogs that have not been on a leash and didn't need one. But those dogs are not very common, in my experience. Interesting idea, though.

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Postby bartspedden » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:49 pm

69Bronc wrote:
bartspedden wrote:I hear you about the apples to apples logic. That makes sense. So let's try this one. I've been on numerous climbs throughtout the country where rock fall from climbers above has caused a dangerous situation. I've also been on climbs on where I've needed to rescue climbers from their own carelessness. Does this make any those people dangerous that need to be banned or leashed? maybe, but probably not. Carelessness is going to happen EVERYWHERE. I was coming off of bailed attempt on the diamond where i met a group of people who were on a memorial hike for an infant that died when the hiking backpack that it was in tipped over and fell down a cliff. Should we not let parents hike with their kids in backpacks now? To try and place the blame on dogs for creating a dangerous situation is a tough sell. It's the owners to blame, and I will always take responsibility for my dogs actions. Having hunted with my dog on numerous occassion I am certain that having a dog on leash at ALL times is only one perspective, and not mine. I'd be so psyched if there a series of tests that you and your dog could pass for varying levels of leash laws. Think about it. Some people have really well trained dogs, and some people THINK they have really well trained dogs. Why not have a state wide testing process?

bart


If your dog is very well trained and listens to all of your voice commands - even in a distracting environment - then that is fine. I have absolutely no problem with that.

Like you said, carelessness is going to happen everywhere - even with humans. The difference is that a human has the ability to survey a situation before hand and determine if his/her actions are going to create a less than ideal situation (albeit some humans don't do this - should they be banned? I don't know. I just hope they aren't climbing above me). Some dog owners will argue that a "their" dog can do the same thing. I don't think that is the case most of the time. My dog is only moderately "trained". We rescued him at an age of 2 years. I am still working with him, but it is a long process. But he, like a lot of dogs that I see, tend to forget about the training if a bird or a marmot jumps out. They just bolt toward the target, not paying attention to any commands.

Your idea for a series of tests for different leash laws is an interesting one. I have seen VERY well trained dogs that have not been on a leash and didn't need one. But those dogs are not very common, in my experience. Interesting idea, though.


My pup is a rescue dog too. Got him at the age of 1. It took the first year to training him and me so that we were on the same page. Then I took him into the field to learn how to flush rabbits. A tough task for a dog because the goal is simply to flush, not to catch. If the dog doesn't put on the brakes after getting the rabbit to run it places itself in danger of getting a butt full of bird shot. But with time, and literally a few thousand training test runs, he learned it. This doesn't mean he's perfect though. Everyone once and a while he gets hair up his arse and he chases. At which point it's MY responsibility to not injure him. Dog's do stupid things sometimes.

5 years ago there was a small group of people and dogs meeting at my place to go camping and and climb a 14'er. We all knew one another and the dog's had all hiked together before without any issues. When all of a sudden a friends dog locked his jaws on my dogs neck. There's was blood and fur all over living room. I had to strangle the other dog to point where it passed out to get him of my dog. What a HUGE fiasco. It ruined the weekend. But, being human, we deal with this type stuff. I offered to pay for my friend's dog to go to serious training. The offer was declined and I don't hike with that friend anymore.

The only reason I bring this is to say, yes, I know first that dogs aren't perfect. But neither are humans. So, if a human has gone through the effort train themself and their pet (even a cat if you want a hiking cat ) :wink: to behave as expected on trail, or even in public parks for that matter, then they should be given the chance to prove it. And then enjoy the outdoors in peace.

Think about the effectiveness of a rescue dog on leash. No one expects an avalanche pup to be on leash, not even in public at A-Basin. That's because has proven itself and earned the right. I've considered many different options (rescue work, therapy work, mountain work) to work with my dog so that he can have the chance to earn the same right. But should I have to contrive an option? Why can't I simply go through tests?

bart

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dogs on 14ers

Postby superdawg » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:21 pm

dogs should absolutely be allowed on 14ers... but only if their owners are responsible for them. i have a dog who hikes everywhere with me (except in NPs), and she is extremely well-behaved (fortunately). i always make sure i know where she is and what shes doing. it's irresponsible owners (much like irresponsible parents) who are the problem. if a dog messes, pick it up. if a dog is pushing people off the trail, use a leash and reconsider your training methods (or reconsider even bringing such a dog). but saying that dogs should be completely banned from trails is not the solution. some people (like me) hike not only for the pleasure of achieving a goal and getting some awesome pictures, but also for the pleasure of my dog's company on the trail. dogs definitely enhance an owner's hiking experience - and if they are properly controlled, there is no reason to ban them. to the people who simply dont like dogs (or dont like having dogs "sniff" them), suck it up. i dont like being around people who smoke, but as a pedestrian i walk through clouds of cigarette smoke on an almost daily basis. and you know what? i deal with it. everyone has something that irritates them. part of being an adult is learning to deal with such situations.

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Postby Spam » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:39 am

I am rehashing this...sorry, however, I feel compelled. I climbed Humboldt this weekend and I found many well behaved , great dogs on the trail and more importantly great/responsible owners. (still wondering how those two Beagles made it up) Except one! Up just beond the crestone/humboldt trai fork there was a dog that was left by itself chained in a camp area and barking nonstop for a couple hours. Granted I am one that does not mind dogs on the mountain, I mind the owners of the dogs. That being said, I have a couple issues here:

1. my neighbors dogs bark non stop till they bring them in at night. If I want to listen to a dog bark I'll stay at home, I kind of like the peaceful serenity of the outdoors.

2. AND MOST IMPORTANT, a chained up dog is nothing but animal fodder. How is the dog going to protect itself from any predators?

If you love your animal and are going to bring it, bring it with you!!! Don't leave it while you climb for 8 hours. You wouldn't want to be chained up.

I definately had strong feelings about this, as did my climbing partners. I may be completely off base here, however, this goes beyond is it okay to have dogs on 14ers, this hit's on are you competant to have a dog period!

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Summiting is optional, getting down mandatory--Ed Visteurs

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Postby MrsPalmer » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:46 am

Spam wrote:2. AND MOST IMPORTANT, a chained up dog is nothing but animal fodder. How is the dog going to protect itself from any predators?

If you love your animal and are going to bring it, bring it with you!!! Don't leave it while you climb for 8 hours. You wouldn't want to be chained up.


I totally agree with you here.
Even if the dog was unable (healthwise) to go with them, they should have had someone stay back with it.

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Postby Heddy » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:03 pm

notanothertexan wrote:I just adopted a border collie and have been getting her ready for some trail hiking this summer incuding a few easy 14ers. I think of myself as a responsible dog owner who keeps my dog on a leash and picks up after her, but what are some other tips for for taking her out n the trail.


I've been asking other dogs owners that same question. I don't have a dog yet, but we're getting one next month and it will most likely go on every hike with us. A few things a friend has done with his dog is to train her to come to a clicking sound instead of her name so that he's not out there on the trail yelling all day. She's not leashed and he doesn't allow her to get too far ahead and calls her back when others are approaching. He's trained her to relieve herself off the trail and doesn't pick up after her. It's outside, in the woods, off the trail. Same as all the other animal waste (except the horses, that's usually right in the middle of the trail - nothing against horses on trails). There's probably some instances where leashing isn't a bad idea out on the trail (dangerous terrain, a lot of people, scared kids, untrained dogs around, etc.) and I'm sure I'll leash him/her up then, but since I'll be the "pack leader" I'll also let him/her hike with me unleashed when well trained. Cesar Millan, IMO, is a great resource for general training and dog psychology if you're looking for a resource.
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Postby paully » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:46 am

Dog's are a lot like humans... if they're well trained then they're fine on the mountains. If they're not then leave them at home. Same with people. If you're too out of shape or too much of a selfish a-hole to keep our mountains clean, you shouldn't be up there. To say dogs are worse than humans is way too much of a blanket statement, as is saying that humans are worse than dogs.

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