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Dogs on 14ers

Dogs, dogs and even some cats
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Let's try to keep the topics related to mountaineering, please.
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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby cheeseburglar » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:23 pm

weschun wrote:
Forest Service rules dictate that dogs are to be on a leash see:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/conditions/closure-orders/ufc-01-06_urban_front_country.pdf

Top of page three

The number one complaint received by the Forest Service is “dogs off leash”

Dogs have been banned from the trails in National Parks.

Seems like you might not have read the whole document.
I wonder if anyone knows where you could actually view the exhibits that show where dogs are required to be leashed in the National Forest?
The document referenced above says:
The following prohibitions apply to those areas of the above National Forests that are
depicted and shown on the attached exhibits hereby incorporated into this Order as
Exhibits: I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z and AA.

Of course, the pdf doesn't include the exhibits. My understanding is the leash provision only applies to wilderness areas and a few other high use areas and signs telling you to leash dogs are located in these areas.
Of course that might have changed since last summer.
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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby randalmartin » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:18 pm

To be completely clear, CFI is NOT advocating banning dogs on 14ers. Very unfortunate that Missy_Goat's statement was interpreted that way. The CFI website has the following statement under the Leave No Trace page

"Keep Your Dog Under Control

A well-behaved and closely watched dog can be an excellent companion for a Fourteener climb. However, left uncontrolled, dogs can be a nuisance to other visitors and a threat to wildlife. Many Fourteeners have specific regulations regarding pets. Be sure you know and follow leash laws. More importantly, be sure that your dog is under control at all times – within sight and under voice or leash control. Dogs are not a natural part of an alpine environment. Alpine mammals evolved with canine predators, and the mere sight of a domestic dog causes them stress. When chasing wildlife, dogs threaten animals’ health and disturb the balance of existing predator/ prey relationships. Only bring your dog to Colorado’s high country if you are certain that your dog will follow your commands at all times. Otherwise, for the sake of your dog and the local wildlife, it is often best to leave your dog at home."

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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby weschun » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:20 pm

From the Code of Federal Regulations
Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property
PART 261—PROHIBITIONS
§ 261.8 Fish and wildlife.

The following are prohibited to the extent Federal or State law is violated:
(a) Hunting, trapping, fishing, catching, molesting, killing or having in possession any kind of wild animal, bird, or fish, or taking the eggs of any such bird.
(b) Possessing a firearm or other implement designed to discharge a missile capable of destroying animal life.
(c) Possessing equipment which could be used for hunting, fishing, or trapping.
(d) Possessing a dog not on a leash or otherwise confined.
(e) Curtail the free movement of any animal or plant life into or out of a cave, except as authorized to protect a cave resource.
[42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977, as amended at 46 FR 33520, June 30, 1981; 59 FR 31152, June 17, 1994]

I think there are some other Forest Service regs that dogs must be leashed.
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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby Gabriel » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:18 pm

A fair compromise would be to require hikers to leash companion animals to protect the alpine environment.

G

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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby uwe » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:19 am

Boy,
If folks would take as much deliberation and discussion about taking folks or themselves up a 14'er, there would be less accidents, rescues, mishaps, unhappy faces, etc. I am reminded of the Seinfeld observation that if aliens came and observed human behavior, they would have a hard time discerning who was the master. From my observation, the answer is easy - the dog. Mountaineering is not a natural recreational activity for dogs. Of course there are exceptions called rescue dogs who undergo years of training. That is why the mountains are full of mountain goats and not 'mountain' dogs. They go because they are too dumb to know better, or because they are so desperate to get out the 1 bedroom prison called a condo, that they are willing to go anywhere. Get real folks, they are only going because the owner is. I have seen plenty of dogs unleashed, tortured, wasted, dehydrated, paws bleeding, and oblivious owners who think it is all so cute. Try this, take those cute, expensive dog booties, put them on your hands and feet and go climb a 14'er, and tell me how it went. Geez, at least keep them below treeline.

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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby Eagle eye 1 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:29 pm

I really do not like to see them on the trail, or the mountain. One thing I really hate is smelling dog crap. :x I go to the mountains to enjoy hearing the sounds of the animals that live there, not listening to dogs barking and their owners yelling at, or for them.

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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby Tory Wells » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:58 pm

uwe wrote:Boy,
If folks would take as much deliberation and discussion about taking folks or themselves up a 14'er, there would be less accidents, rescues, mishaps, unhappy faces, etc. I am reminded of the Seinfeld observation that if aliens came and observed human behavior, they would have a hard time discerning who was the master. From my observation, the answer is easy - the dog. Mountaineering is not a natural recreational activity for dogs. Of course there are exceptions called rescue dogs who undergo years of training. That is why the mountains are full of mountain goats and not 'mountain' dogs. They go because they are too dumb to know better, or because they are so desperate to get out the 1 bedroom prison called a condo, that they are willing to go anywhere. Get real folks, they are only going because the owner is. I have seen plenty of dogs unleashed, tortured, wasted, dehydrated, paws bleeding, and oblivious owners who think it is all so cute. Try this, take those cute, expensive dog booties, put them on your hands and feet and go climb a 14'er, and tell me how it went. Geez, at least keep them below treeline.

Eagle eye 1 wrote:I really do not like to see them on the trail, or the mountain. One thing I really hate is smelling dog crap. :x I go to the mountains to enjoy hearing the sounds of the animals that live there, not listening to dogs barking and their owners yelling at, or for them.

Humans cause FAR more damage to the mountains than dogs ever will. Maybe we should ban humans?

And a marmot will never chew on my gear or steal my lunch when my dog is with me. Perhaps a little fear of humans put into the marmots by the dogs is a good thing?
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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby ZCeriani » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:10 pm

uwe wrote: Mountaineering is not a natural recreational activity for dogs.


I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the mountains were not placed there for human enjoyment. As a matter of fact, Mountaineering is not a natural recreational activity for humans. If it were, we'd be born with camelbacks and gortex. We wouldn't suffer from things like altitude sickness and pulmonary edema. So before you go condemning dogs and dog owners, realize that you have as little business up there as a dog might.
As for the "Leave No Trace" argument and saying that dogs destroy the alpine environment, I can get behind that a little bit. I fail to see, though, how my 30 pound dogs are more destructive than say, abandoned mine shafts, decrepit buildings, and 500 people traipsing up and down the same path per day dropping clothing, food wrappers, water bottles, and other assortments of items that could be considered "a trace." I'll make you a deal, when my dogs leave behind mining equipment, building foundations, and their sandwich bags, I'll make sure they are never invited on a mountain path again. I do agree that dog poo is detrimental to the environment. Its one of my biggest pet peeves to see a dog take a huge dook in the middle of a path and the owner walk away like its perfectly okay. Dog poo is much like human poo and carries the same dangers for disease and should be treated in the same manner. It should be collected and packed out with you. You go to the mountains to smell nature? Man, you're not smelling a thing but dirt and rocks above tree line... and maybe a dog turd from some inconsiderate owner.
I would argue that my dog is no more a bother on the trail than a child under the age of 15. They get in the way, they don't understand they need to move all the way over on the trail when letting people pass, they might want to go mess around in the snow when you come upon it, I guess the difference is that kids don't sniff each other in the middle of the trail before moving on with their parents. I would venture to say that dogs behave better than kids and most adults. Kids don't behave 100% of the time and I daresay, neither do adults (funny side story, my buddy stopped a fist fight that broke out between two grown men in the theater when we went to go see Harry Potter). And maybe the difference here is that I haven't experienced the ill mannered dog and dog owner yet. Boulder Open Space allows dogs to be off their leashes and they basically require that you be a responsible dog owner (i.e. voice and sight control, picking up after your dog, being aware of what is going on around you) and maybe thats a standard that should be implemented across the board. I'm sorry if you have experienced a bad dog owner, but please don't categorically condemn us all. Anyways, I'm off my soapbox; I felt I needed to get that out, as I was fairly twisted about some comments made.

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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby gatorchick » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:58 am

uwe wrote:Boy,
Get real folks, they are only going because the owner is. I have seen plenty of dogs unleashed, tortured, wasted, dehydrated, paws bleeding, and oblivious owners who think it is all so cute.


You are kidding right? Have whatever opinion you want on whether or not dogs SHOULD be on the mountain but don't try to argue that the vast majority don't ENJOY being there. Obviously there are mountains that dogs shouldn't be on (and some dogs that shouldn't be on mountains) but the vast majority of dogs that I have seen on class 1-2 routes are absolutely enjoying it. My dog did her 12th 14er yesterday. Anyone who has hiked with us will tell you that she is never happier than when she is on the trail.

Sorry, I have tried to stay out of this argument, but this comment was assinine.
Jen

"In her heart she knows that sometimes a dog can be as good as any man ..." - widespread panic (slightly edited)

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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby uwe » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:44 am

ZCeriani wrote:I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the mountains were not placed there for human enjoyment. As a matter of fact, Mountaineering is not a natural recreational activity for humans. If it were, we'd be born with camelbacks and gortex. We wouldn't suffer from things like altitude sickness and pulmonary edema. So before you go condemning dogs and dog owners, realize that you have as little business up there as a dog might.


If you feel that way, what are you doing up there?

Break on! I love righteousness. It is so... so human.
Tread lightly into your rush to judgment. You know me not.
There was no condemnation in my opinion. It was my answer to the question.

To be absolutely clear, it is not my displeasure at seeing dogs up there, it is my empathy for the dog that drives my opinion.
Have seen many of them beat, hurt and dog tired all because they were loyally following their owner.
I am fully connected with the theme of man's best friend. I wore the badge of dog owner proudly for over 10 years before sadly having to put my Tolly girl down and bury her. I cried like a baby.
I surmise by your kids analogy, you have none. I raised 2. Your description may describe toddlers, but not much else. Well, maybe some adults...

lanternerouge08 wrote:Humans cause FAR more damage to the mountains than dogs ever will. Maybe we should ban humans?

The answer is it depends. Thee are so many choices to be made when you consider banning humans.

gatorchick wrote:Sorry, I have tried to stay out of this argument, but this comment was assinine


Hi, nice to meet you, too. Don't be sorry. Opinions generating opinions. Fact: dogs go where their owners go. Fact: I have seen plenty of unhappy dogs on the 14'ers. Fact: I said many, not majority. (Pull our your dictionary and study the definitions. I tend to be careful in the choosing of my words.) I am happy for you and your dog. By the way, assinine is actually spelled asinine. Thought you should know. Unless you did it on purpose to convey a subtle message.


Inky6900 wrote:Banning dogs is not the answer. Banning dogs only makes a significant change while making no real positive moment towards the actual issue - peak preservation.

Well said.

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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby gatorchick » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:54 am

Sorry, I have tried to stay out of this argument, but this comment was assinine


Hi, nice to meet you, too. Don't be sorry. Opinions generating opinions. Fact: dogs go where their owners go. Fact: I have seen plenty of unhappy dogs on the 14'ers. Fact: I said many, not majority. (Pull our your dictionary and study the definitions. I tend to be careful in the choosing of my words.) I am happy for you and your dog. By the way, assinine is actually spelled asinine. Thought you should know. Unless you did it on purpose to convey a subtle message.



Thank you for so kindly pointing out my pre-coffee-on-a-Sunday-morning typo. I still stand by what I said.
Jen

"In her heart she knows that sometimes a dog can be as good as any man ..." - widespread panic (slightly edited)

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Re: Dogs on 14ers

Postby uwe » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:16 am

Roger that.

My Regards,

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