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Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Threads related to Colorado mountaineering accidents but please keep it civil and respectful. Friends and relatives of fallen climbers will be reading these posts.
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Please be respectful when posting - family and friends of fallen climbers might be reading this forum.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby Kodachrome » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:33 pm

summit2sea wrote:Regardless of these outcomes, we (our community) would always review what led up to the incident.


Are your community reviews publicly visible to 2.7+ million "visitors" annually and subject to be found by friends or family of the missing, maimed or deceased via Google search?

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby summit2sea » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:33 am

As a matter of fact yes, eventually they are. http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/reports_aviation.html

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby rijaca » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:40 am

summit2sea wrote:As a matter of fact yes, eventually they are. http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/reports_aviation.html


And written by professional investigators after a thorough investigation of the circumstances.... (and posted months after the accident occurred).
"Spent a little time on the mountain
Spent a little time on the hill"

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby summit2sea » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:05 am

I agree completely. Have you read Ryan Marsters' (monster5), report? Months after the accident, written by someone who was there. He's not a professional (I don't think) but it is an outstanding analysis of the events that occurred on Snowmass.

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby Tim A » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:39 am

One can hardly compare the investigation of an airplane crash with that of a mountaineering incident. Unless the person in the accident is wearing some kind of neural 'black-box' which records data from all of their muscle strands, we'll never know what happened.

I don't think anyone is against accident analysis as a whole. When a 'primary source' to an incident feels compelled to share their experience, we all stand to benefit. The issue many people (myself included) take is when individuals who were not present either begin fishing for details or making up detailed scenarios themselves, as if not talking about it somehow puts us more at risk in the mountains than before the incident.

This whole push for creating a private forum for accident discussions just doesn't have any merit as far as real safety is concerned. The only people who have anything real to contribute are those people who were present, and if and when they are ready to share their experiences in an anonymous online format, I imagine it will be long after the 'recency effect' has worn off and discussions on a particular incident (all conjecture up to that point) have since faded.

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby BillMiddlebrook » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:17 pm

After reading all of the posts and taking some time to think about it, I'd like feedback on adding a 2nd accident-related forum section specifically for analysis+discussion and hide it from the 14ers.com home page thread list. Additionally, I could rename the current section so it's clear there's a section for reporting accidents and different one for analysis:

- Climbing Accidents: Memorial
- Climbing Accidents: Analysis and Discussion


Having that second section hidden from the home page would help keep some of the spotlight off the discussions. Moderators could keep an eye on them to make sure the posts are appropriate for the specific section and move threads/posts as necessary. I would also post some clear, blunt instructions on what is appropriate (and not) in each section and remind people that friends and family read the threads. Of course, not every accident needs much analysis so threads won't be automatically be created in there just because there's an accident.

Accident threads usually start with a post made in the 14ers section or somewhere else but we (moderators) will continue to move them to one of the Climbing Accident sections when it's appropriate.

I agree that there's benefit in civil, thoughtful discussion but, like many, I care most about family and friends of those involved in accidents. Since our forum is focused on Colorado mountaineering, I think most people here aren't just posting to cause trouble but sometimes tempers flare and the best we can do is try to keep things on track and apply some moderation when necessary. This is not the CNN.com comment section so it's not like we have to worry about every single thread deteriorating into political rants and name-calling.

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby Hungry Jack » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:25 pm

Sounds like a good plan. I would appreciate the accident analysis discussions, and I think this group is quite capable of being civil.
I need more dehydrogenase.

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby BKS » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:27 pm

Again, wise mature response that keeps making this site evem better

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby mattpayne11 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:53 pm

I think this is an amazing response, thank you Bill.

BillMiddlebrook wrote:After reading all of the posts and taking some time to think about it, I'd like feedback on adding a 2nd accident-related forum section specifically for analysis+discussion and hide it from the 14ers.com home page thread list. Additionally, I could rename the current section so it's clear there's a section for reporting accidents and different one for analysis:

- Climbing Accidents: Memorial
- Climbing Accidents: Analysis and Discussion


Having that second section hidden from the home page would help keep some of the spotlight off the discussions. Moderators could keep an eye on them to make sure the posts are appropriate for the specific section and move threads/posts as necessary. I would also post some clear, blunt instructions on what is appropriate (and not) in each section and remind people that friends and family read the threads. Of course, not every accident needs much analysis so threads won't be automatically be created in there just because there's an accident.

Accident threads usually start with a post made in the 14ers section or somewhere else but we (moderators) will continue to move them to one of the Climbing Accident sections when it's appropriate.

I agree that there's benefit in civil, thoughtful discussion but, like many, I care most about family and friends of those involved in accidents. Since our forum is focused on Colorado mountaineering, I think most people here aren't just posting to cause trouble but sometimes tempers flare and the best we can do is try to keep things on track and apply some moderation when necessary. This is not the CNN.com comment section so it's not like we have to worry about every single thread deteriorating into political rants and name-calling.

Thoughts?

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby TomPierce » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:15 pm

Bill: I really like your idea. At the risk of oversimplifying dozens of posts, in my opinion I think everyone is more or less on the same page: To the extent possible, keep it out of public view, but be mindful that family and friends might visit anyway. Therefore keep the critical comments at bay, we can each draw our own conclusions. Understand that many accidents just don't allow for much, if any, analysis, e.g. the solo, unroped falls. No witnesses were present, probably no gear failures to analyze. Other events might merit more in-depth discussions, but the quality of those discussions will depend on the facts known and the participants. No doubt the quality also will improve with the passage of time. Waiting for a formal accident report is the ideal, and obviously would be a great vehicle for discussion, but it's entirely possible that a report will be a long time in coming, or will be so cursory that little value is added (fwiw, I went back recently and reviewed a copy of Accidents in North American Mountaineering and the quality of reporting is all over the map). Those who get value from such discussions will participate or at least read the posts, others who disagree with the merit of such postings will pass them by.

As for moderation, I like the "first rule" banner that pops up over on www.mountainproject.com if you want to post: "First Rule: Don't be a jerk." If people can't be civil, you and your team can step in as needed.

My vote is yes, let's try it. Just my opinion.

-Tom

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby Kodachrome » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:28 pm

This is *great* stuff, people being direct and yet considerate, moving forward, identifying core goals in a new opportunity, innovating, leading by example, perfect folks, love it!

There will always be potential for an emotionally charged opinion, especially given the topic. But it is up to all of us to help guide the discussion to a less combustible state by not fueling it in response to that opinion. What Bill said above is in my mind, exactly what needs to happen...so onward.....

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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Postby edhaman » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:34 pm

For any given incident, I'd like to see two threads: One thread for notices of a missing person, SAR activities and results, and accident comments and analysis. A separate thread for well-wishes (for the missing), condolences, and memorials and testimonials.

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