Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

[lodgling]

It baffles the mind to think why this has not happened, it's not like the site is going to degrade or lose precious hits or something.

Don't even think about going there.

[Kodachrome]

[quote="lodgling"][quote="Kodachrome"]It baffles the mind to think why this has not happened, it's not like the site is going to degrade or lose precious hits or something.[/quote]

Don't even think about going there.[/quote]

Sorry, but I am going to keep "Going There" until something is done about it, it's common courtesy and common sense at this point.

[lodgling]

But I thought you were "done here."

[Kodachrome]

[quote="lodgling"]But I thought you were "done here."[/quote]

Oh, like many I have been reading here on and off for years, like I said in my earlier post on this thread, it seems like some are coming to their senses and the topic is ripe for rational discussion and innovative consensus.

It would not take a lot of effort to get this whole thing to a lot better place in terms of being web-considerate and it would speak *highly* of the community.

[ameristrat]

Ok, I'm glad that you are self evaluating. I wasn't quite sure based on your statement. I agree that the type of analysis that would be done on this particular public forum would be ...uhh... less than stellar or sensitive. (Based on past threads)

But...

After the Sheep Creek Avalanche, many of my BC ski partners and I got into a bit of a bad tail spin, until the CAIC analysis came out, as well as the report done by Lou Dawson. We were floored. We needed an explanation. So it is too bad that in 14er/13er hikers/scramblers cases, we don't have some sort of professional group to do these analysis with any frequency.

I completely agree. As with most posts I place in controversial threads on this site, there are parts I wish I could say again.

I try to live by the mantra that success is getting out to enjoy the wilderness and getting back to the car safely. We absolutely should make sure that we learn how to be as safe as possible, and, at times, we can learn from others' mistakes. It's the way in which we try to accomplish this that gives me pause.

[susanjoypaul]

This topic has been discussed on this forum *many* times in the past, and my opinion has changed just as many times, for all the reasons written in these posts. To date, Bill has allowed us to "police" ourselves, and so far I think we've all done an excellent job of that.

Those who visit the forum periodically, and who are always so quick to point out what's "wrong" with all of us, are by and large the same people who only visit the site when somebody dies. They make no positive contributions the rest of the year: no trip reports, trailhead updates, photos, or even a dance on a summit. They are the rubberneckers, the drive-bys, who have never really stuck around long enough to realize what a brilliant job the administrator does here, of providing us with an open and democratic forum, without letting us get completely out of control.

I'm going to agree to disagree with all of you some days, and agree with you all some other days. I will never agree with initiating rules that dictate how we choose to discuss accidents or anything else on this site. With all due respect to those who wish to see us "elevate" ourselves to a "higher" state worthy of the admiration and respect of the rest of the online world, I would say that we are already doing a damned good job of it.

[Kodachrome]

[quote="susanjoypaul"]Those who visit the forum periodically, and who are always so quick to point out what's "wrong" with all of us, are by and large the same people who only visit the site when somebody dies. They make no positive contributions the rest of the year: no trip reports, trailhead updates, photos, or even a dance on a summit. They are the rubberneckers, the drive-bys, who have never really stuck around long enough to realize what a brilliant job the administrator does here, of providing us with an open and democratic forum, without letting us get completely out of control.[/quote]

You sure assume a lot, I visit often as I visit other forums often, but due to priorities I don't post often. So it has been illustrated often that there are thousands of community members that do not post...are we "less" than you because we choose to only reply to certain topics? I am not in to trip reports because it takes time away from doing the actual trips. I am not into posting photographs because I decided years ago to nix any public web presence in order to better protect my content and it's copyright, a move that has proven excellent for my career as a photographer.

But I do want to contribute here and I do not agree with the self policing thing in terms of this topic...I am not alone in this and I think that you understandably don't realize how many people in the climbing community this site loses out on by not taking a more socially up-to-date tack on this. Society's behavior on the web is changing, evolving in terms of these types of topics, you can either follow the example down the road or be the example now, but either way, expect things to change in a way that treats everyone more fairly.

If you are truly as open to having a great community as you claim and you want everyone to feel welcome, than you won't take this stance of just because I do not have 1,000+ posts, no photos or a dance on a summit (?) that my opinion does not count.

It does and as I have stated before, I am for once, encouraged by the discussion here...so do you want a online community that includes more of the real climbing community or not?

And by the way, I have been reading topics on this site a lot longer than my join date would lead you to believe.

[lordhelmut]

I am not in to trip reports because it takes time away from doing the actual trips. I am not into posting photographs because I decided years ago to nix any public web presence in order to better protect my content and it's copyright, a move that has proven excellent for my career as a photographer.

With all due respect, these are BS excuses, mainly the first part. Just my personal opinion.

[Kodachrome]

[quote="lordhelmut"][quote] I am not in to trip reports because it takes time away from doing the actual trips. I am not into posting photographs because I decided years ago to nix any public web presence in order to better protect my content and it's copyright, a move that has proven excellent for my career as a photographer. [/quote]

With all due respect, these are all bulls**t excuses, mainly the first part. Just my personal opinion.[/quote]

Since it is a personal choice born of how I prefer to spend my time or issues I have with posting photographs on the web, how do you figure? From the time you start, how long does it take you to file a trip report?

[Fisching]

+1 to d_baker's idea of moving in the direction of covering "close calls." In that situation, the people who are a) still alive and b) willing to share their experience for others so they themselves can learn as well as interest members of the climbing community. After all, the idea of looking at accidents is to better understand mountaineering techniques and safety precautions, but it's far more valuable, and WAY less damaging, and significantly more accurate when it's a first-hand account off the experience. Many people seem to focus on the first part of Steve's now infamous post, but forget the second, and probably more important part:

1. Training highlights preventable mistakes : PLEASE take a series of CMC or private courses designed to build skills. Repeat classes peiodically as long as you are a climber.
2. Mentorship and group participation can teach skills (Thanks, TomPierce for the fieldwork in Ruby Basin.) There is always something new to be learned from a partner.
3. GOOD books, i.e. Freedom of the Hills, written to teach actual skills, can help.
4. Time in the field teaches valuable, applicable (but not perfect) lessons.

And if you'd like to add a #5 to that: sharing close call experiences with other climbers to improve your understanding and technique, then please do so. I'm all for it. There will be few that have a problem with this, and removes the vitriol that presents itself in online death threads/discussions.

Deaths in the mountains will not cease as long as people continue to go up them. Trying to find something a person did wrong will not end this either, as not every death is due to a mistake a climber makes; the reality is that mountains and deaths are inextricably tied. I'd like to share the last part of my response I wrote to the editor's of the same magazine mouintainmedic mentioned earlier:

While I would love nothing more than to say that Rob Jansen's death does not make him a lab specimen to be dissected, I know that will not happen. If there's anything to take away from Rob's death and leave your readers with it's this: Accidents in the mountains can happen even when a climber, who is fully prepared and not taking extraordinary risks or makes a single mistake. It's a risk everyone who steps onto a trail involuntarily accepts.

The question becomes for each individual, are you willing to accept that no amount of training, experience, and knowledge will ever make you completely immune to death on a mountain? Are you willing to accept that risk each time you step onto a trail?

While climbing together, my wife was severely injured and it was truly a miracle that she was spared...and we can hardly talk about it. How would I talk about it with a stranger? Or even worse, write about it on the internet or in an email?

I used to be really curious about the circumstances leading up to/causing each 14er/13er accident. But after having it happen to friends and loved ones, I just pray that too many details are not shared and that nobody slams them for supposed mistakes.

There is another part of surviving an accident, removed from the lead up events, that is far more important to be conscious of, yet no one realizes it till they experience firsthand. Hopefully, you never have to. There might be a time when your climbing partner - a friend, a spouse, a child - is the victim of the accident and you live to hold their hand as they breath their last. Are you willing to call that person's spouse, their child, father or mother and tell them their loved one is dead? Are you willing to deal with the mental fallout of that experience?

If your immediate reaction to that question was "yes." You're not prepared*. Period.

I will never forget the two phone calls that night to Rob's sister and his dad and their reactions. It destroyed whatever was left of me from that day. I ended up seeing a psychologist at the urging of my employer. My body broke out in shingles (an old person’s disease) months later based on the traumatic stress I went through. I suffered from flashbacks of various parts of that day on a daily basis for at least six straight months afterwards; I still even have them today but not with the same frequency. It's been triggered by a single word someone speaks, it's been triggered because of a NBA game recap on SportsCenter. It has been triggered by countless things. My ankle will become sore irregularly to physically remind me of that day. I'm only 11 months into living with the reality there was nothing I could do to save Rob, and yet the feeling of having blood on my hands will not go away. There are others who have gone through a similar situation and went on to suffer years-long depression, problematic drinking, and emotional guilt that cost (or nearly did) some survivors their marriage and a relationship with their children. If you're the parent or spouse of the loved one who passed, how are you going to continue living on knowing that your loved one died tragically and maybe even painfully. It might have been the person you fell in love with, it might have been the child you remember cradling in your arms in the delivery ward. People have questioned the point of their continued existence in the aftermath and contemplated suicide, some become angry at their loved one, at God. Others fall into severe depression. Are you aware of the traumatic fallout death has on survivors and are you willing to deal with it yourself?

Instead of focusing on rampant speculation, it's far more productive to focus on learning about dealing with trauma and providing for the needs of those who endure it as a result of a death in the mountains because no matter how much training, how many books are read, deaths are still going to occur to people in the mountains irregardless to making any mistakes. To those of you who helped me last year - The Brat Pack, Steve Gladbach, Darin Baker, Kim, Rob's parents, Mary Ragan, Ed Riehl - thank you. Your compassion was exactly what I needed.

*And I'm not talking grandma on their death bed or grandpa dying from a natural cause. I've been there for three of those and the experience is completely different.

[BillMiddlebrook]

This topic has been discussed on this forum *many* times in the past, and my opinion has changed just as many times, for all the reasons written in these posts. To date, Bill has allowed us to "police" ourselves, and so far I think we've all done an excellent job of that.

Those who visit the forum periodically, and who are always so quick to point out what's "wrong" with all of us, are by and large the same people who only visit the site when somebody dies. They make no positive contributions the rest of the year: no trip reports, trailhead updates, photos, or even a dance on a summit. They are the rubberneckers, the drive-bys, who have never really stuck around long enough to realize what a brilliant job the administrator does here, of providing us with an open and democratic forum, without letting us get completely out of control.

I'm going to agree to disagree with all of you some days, and agree with you all some other days. I will never agree with initiating rules that dictate how we choose to discuss accidents or anything else on this site. With all due respect to those who wish to see us "elevate" ourselves to a "higher" state worthy of the admiration and respect of the rest of the online world, I would say that we are already doing a damned good job of it.

Oh, susan, I love you more every day. Lol

I am not alone in this and I think that you understandably don't realize how many people in the climbing community this site loses out on by not taking a more socially up-to-date tack on this.

I can assure you that we don't worry about "how many people in the climbing community this site loses out on" because we're not selling widgets. If someone doesn't like how the site operates, it's simply an individual choice.

...

great post

[Kodachrome]

[quote="BillMiddlebrook"][quote="susanjoypaul"]
[quote="Kodachrome"]I am not alone in this and I think that you understandably don't realize how many people in the climbing community this site loses out on by not taking a more socially up-to-date tack on this.[/quote]
I can assure you that we don't worry about "[i]how many people in the climbing community this site loses out on[/i]" because we're not selling widgets. If someone doesn't like how the site operates, it's simply an individual choice.[/quote]

Who is "we", in regards to that quote you mean Susan and you, right?

I see varying opinions on this thread that lead me to believe that others are seeking improvements. And what is meant by widgets? People pursue the high country as a hobby, a means of solitude and even as a profession or in my case, a large part of my profession, that is diversity. But we all surely share a common thread and that is the passion we have for these places and the kinship it can foster among us.

So when someone is lost, hurt or dies in these places, it often stirs the soul of anyone one of us at any one time. And the the way the world works in terms of when this site was first launched compared to now has changed markedly in terms of web born communities and what society at large expects of those communities in terms of these topics and subsequent conduct.

I am a member of this community, I am at this moment contributing to it and I look forward to seeing this topic be collectively moved forward to reflect the times we are now in and the tone of change people on here seek.....

....I remain positive that it will happen, there are good people here who know better and are asking for that change. Please try to be more open to it, you stand to gain more than you will ever lose...