Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Threads related to Colorado mountaineering accidents but please keep it civil and respectful. Friends and relatives of fallen climbers will be reading these posts.
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Johnson
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Johnson »

it seems like analyzing a technical rock climbing accident is different than what happens on our 14ers. Was the equipment placed incorrectly? Did the rope fray and give way? Etc etc.

On so many of our peaks here in Colorado, it seems like the issue is more like, did a rock give way? Or was the person hit by rock? Did they slip? If they were older....did they have a heart attack? Did they get hit by lightning? Most of these are speculative at best and really don't help us in our mountaineering adventures other than just being vigilant.

One common factor that seems to resurface time and time again is, "we split up and then we called SAR". Never leave your wingman Mav!
Last edited by Johnson on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jdorje
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by jdorje »

Would having a section simply restricted to registered users be sufficient? What would Bill's thought on that be?


On an unrelated note, I have observed a pattern in Colorado accidents. 85-90% of them are directly caused by falls, 8-12% by rock fall, and less than 5% by everything else, including weather, animals, hypothermia, etc. My immediate conclusion is that weather indirectly causes far more accidents when we rush to get safe from it, when simply staying put in a place safe from falling and rockfall would be more likely to keep us safe.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by bergsteigen »

The reality of the situation is, we ALL talk about what happens(ed) after an accident. Just not always on a public forum. There are group pm's, emails and just talking about it while drinking beers, etc. The problem is, for those that don't have a climbing group of friends, or those that are still learning, you are on your own.

We've all had "close calls", and if we don't analyze what we may have done wrong, we'll never learn or be "safer" in the future. Since the reality is, we are never 100% safe. Our sport is a very risky one, and we all have to be aware of our own tolerance to risk as well as our own abilities.

I found perusing the Summit Post Mountaineering Accident Statistics to be very enlightening as to general causes. Falling is #1. These charts are a great place to start to learn to mitigate ones risk in the mountains.

Image Image Image


Then comes the "human factor". The skiers amongst us, who've had AIARE I or more, should be well versed in this. Darin Baker's write up, that Anna links above, is a good translation to rock scrambling (http://www.cmc.org/Portals/0/GoverningD ... 202011.pdf) It is well worth the read.
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Jesse M
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Jesse M »

Could the non public forum Bill created recently be a good spot for accident analysis?
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Floyd »

"Athletes express themselves physically, this is their art. As an athlete, exhausting oneself on the field or or on the track or on the trail or on the mountain brings calm and satisfaction. Thrashing about… our expression." - Steve Gleason
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by smoove »

No one has forgotten his post. In fact, TomPierce discussed it earlier in this thread.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by oldschoolczar »

Jesse M wrote:Could the non public forum Bill created recently be a good spot for accident analysis?
What is the non-public forum?
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Jesse M
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Jesse M »

@oldschoolczar

Bill created an offline or non public forum during the fall or winter. It requires permission to join, even for 14ers members. The forum has been rarely used and I think this would make a great place to hold accident analysis threads.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Jim Davies »

Bill recently deleted the non-public forum because it wasn't being used. It was basically a members-only, opt-in discussion area.

I like to hear the details of accidents, preferably from reliable sources, because I like to think it helps me avoid dangerous situations. On the other hand, I've personally read through enough accidents that I'm not sure there's much left to learn, frankly (or at least that applies to non-glaciated, non-technical, fair-weather climbing like I do).

The avalanche accident analyses serve a different purpose, IMO. Staying safe in avalanche terrain is tricky and basically an unsolved problem, which has many factors that don't apply to most Colorado 14er accidents (like snowpack history, and group decision-making and peer pressure). Sometimes it might be useful to know that it's rained a lot lately and that could increase rockfall, but usually the routes are the same throughout the summer.

I think what I've learned from various accident reports boils down to a few rules:
1) Keep your group together
2) Know the route, and don't improvise shortcuts in difficult terrain
3) Beware of snow slopes - carry an ice axe if you'll be crossing any
4) Be aware of the weather
5) Be patient, but go fast when it's safe to do so
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by MountainHiker »

I can see both sides. I would really hate to be in the position of questioning if I could have done something to prevent another person’s death. So to then see speculation on the internet of how the accident happened would add to the pain. Even if I knew I shouldn’t feel guilty because of the circumstances I would still be beating myself up. This would be on top of the grief of losing someone close to me.

So that’s where sensitivity comes in. I am in the camp of wanting to know. People seem to be tolerant of speculation before we know the outcome. “Where could they be?” In some cases the combined knowledge and interaction of this forum has helped the SAR response. Where people get rightfully upset is speculating what happened without solid details and with judging the dead.

But when the details come out in a respectful way we can learn. Not to smugly declare we wouldn’t have done that. We all make mistakes. We make rookie mistakes when we start something new. We make more advanced mistakes as we become more involved in an activity. That’s a reason not to rush the learning curve so we don’t stack up those mistakes. We usually get away with our mistakes. But it’s been pointed out disasters often happen when multiple things go wrong. We can learn from our own mistakes and we can learn from other people's mistakes. Sometimes it’s just bad luck. And some places on our mountains are a lot more risky than others.

It’s often pointed out the best witness to what went wrong isn’t around to tell us. So there will be a limit to what we can sometimes learn. But we should try to learn. We shouldn’t limit our learning to fatalities. When we are hurt and survive or have a close call we should analyze what happened in case there’s a warning for others.

I’ve been hurt a couple times (Snowmass, Grand Teton) and had a close call (El Diente) on another occasion. I wrote a trip report that included the El Diente close call. After a lot of reflection I decided what happened on the Grand Teton. My camera was strapped to my chest strap. I was in a spot where I needed to suck up against the wall to stay in balance. In addition, I was wearing my big pack which was tall enough my bucket helmet would hit when I looked up. I peeled off and took a whipper. Un-roped it would have been fatal. I now avoid wearing a big pack and am more cognizant of attached gear in technical terrain and have a smaller profile helmet.
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crossfitter
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by crossfitter »

Dex wrote: Here is what I think a person needs to assume if they are thinking discussion of an accident could/would add to the pain.

1 - someone close to the person injured/died is reading ther 14er.com post
Perhaps you haven't been paying attention, but friends and family of victims show up and post in these threads almost every time.
Dex wrote: 2 - that person reads all the posts
From the current Kit Carson Thread:
Hi all, this is Mike's brother John. I'm very sorry to report that Mike was found earlier today. He had fallen on his descent on Friday and did not survive. We are devastated but also incredibly grateful for all your support and prayers. We've printed this thread and given it to our mother.
Dex wrote: 3 - sees something negative in the speculation
In previous death threads, I have witnessed comments to the effect of "What was he thinking climbing in such bad weather?" It doesn't take a huge leap of empathy to realize that it won't make the family members feel any better knowing their loved one died from a error perceived to be trivial by their peers.
Dex wrote: 4 - does not see the speculation as trying to understand what happened
5 - does not know the nature of an open forum - i.e. anyone can post anything
6 - does not know the nature of the net - i.e. anyone from anywhere in the world can post and can have different perspectives on what is appropriate.
7. thinks the posters know someone close to the person is reading the posts
8. thinks that posters should not speculate
9. agrees with the idea that only condolences should be expressed in the thread
10 agrees with only know facts should be posted in the thread

Main point - there is a lot of assuming going on.

I'm sure there are some other assumptions that I missed.
None of these points matter. All we're asking is to move the discussion away from the highly visible and public thread to a private venue. Even disregarding the ethics alone, you cannot have a constructive or meaningful analysis until you can gather all the facts. If you're going to have an accident analysis, do it right. This isn't twitter and you don't have to have the mystery solved before the body is cold. There are many well documented cases to read and learn from until the new incident can be discussed in an objective manner.
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- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack

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Jesse M
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Jesse M »

@JimDavies

I still show the offline forum, I even just posted a test thread.
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