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14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Colorado 14ers access and fee issues only, please

Are you okay with paying a user fee to access Colorado 14'ers?

Yes, for all 14'ers.
22
9%
Maybe, for certain areas.
39
15%
Maybe, but only if the fees were small.
25
10%
No, fees should generally not be charged to access these areas.
170
66%
 
Total votes : 256
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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby CHWitte » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:15 pm

BillMiddlebrook wrote:
LtWitte wrote:Why are people so afraid to talk politics?

We're not afraid of the subject, just sick of constantly seeing it on this mountaineering forum. It almost always turns into useless, garbage discussions.


Bill, how do you have a discussion about 14er trailhead fees without it becoming political? One side will win in the end. You either have them or you don't based up the politicians we have in Congress and the way they vote. I don't see a discussion about increasing taxes for hiking purposes a useless discussion about garbage since I'll be one who would have to pay these extra taxes when I hike.

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby nfire » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:15 pm

BillMiddlebrook wrote:
LtWitte wrote:Why are people so afraid to talk politics?

We're not afraid of the subject, just sick of constantly seeing it on this mountaineering forum. It almost always turns into useless, garbage discussions.

its awful. this thread is terrible.

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby SilverLynx » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:17 pm

Although I am on the side of no fees, you also have to consider the sheer amount of use the 14ers are probably going to see over the next 50-100 years. More and more people are getting into 14ers these days. Each footstep has an impact. People leave trash and debris on trails and poop on summits. Camp sites get used to the point where the grass is gone. Some people even cut switchbacks! [-X The mountains are not immune to humans. The trails are going to need maintenance at some point. I'm not saying it's fair to charge fees at trailheads, but is it fair to expect maintenance crews to do that work for free? Is it fair to use everyone's tax money (even non-hikers) to pay for keeping the 14ers beautiful for future generations? I don't know what the right answer to this is. It is an issue with many shades of gray.
Last edited by SilverLynx on Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear."
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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby Shawnee Bob » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:18 pm

LtWitte wrote:
BillMiddlebrook wrote:
LtWitte wrote:Why are people so afraid to talk politics?

We're not afraid of the subject, just sick of constantly seeing it on this mountaineering forum. It almost always turns into useless, garbage discussions.


Bill, how do you have a discussion about 14er trailhead fees without it becoming political? One side will win in the end. You either have them or you don't based up the politicians we have in Congress and the way they vote. I don't see a discussion about increasing taxes for hiking purposes a useless discussion about garbage since I'll be one who would have to pay these extra taxes when I hike.


You can have a discussion about fees, a POLICY issue, without going into red/blue, liberal/conservative GOP/Dem crap. People are just tempted to run back to that framework because EVERYTHING is being politicized. And it's tiring.
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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby CHWitte » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:21 pm

Shawnee Bob wrote:You can have a discussion about fees, a POLICY issue, without going into red/blue, liberal/conservative GOP/Dem crap. People are just tempted to run back to that framework because EVERYTHING is being politicized. And it's tiring.


What good is a POLICY discussion if you can't do anything about the policy? Who makes policy?...Congress

Therefore, any policy discussion must be of a political nature or what's the point?

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby nfire » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:21 pm

LtWitte wrote:
Shawnee Bob wrote:You can have a discussion about fees, a POLICY issue, without going into red/blue, liberal/conservative GOP/Dem crap. People are just tempted to run back to that framework because EVERYTHING is being politicized. And it's tiring.


What good is a POLICY discussion if you can't do anything about the policy? Who makes policy?...Congress

Therefore, any policy discussion must be of a political nature or what's the point?

STFU

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby coloradokevin » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:23 pm

nfire wrote:
BillMiddlebrook wrote:
LtWitte wrote:Why are people so afraid to talk politics?

We're not afraid of the subject, just sick of constantly seeing it on this mountaineering forum. It almost always turns into useless, garbage discussions.

its awful. this thread is terrible.


Please allow me to interject... this thread is a very important discussion of an issue that could potentially affect all of us, each and every time we hike. It's that simple. Having a debate about whether or not such fees are appropriate, and what we should do to address such a situation, is the entire purpose of this thread.

Turning it into a Liberal vs Conservative debate was NOT my intention, and is NOT the issue that I'd like this thread to focus on (we all know this forum is sharply divided on their voting preferences).

But, PLEASE lets keep a decent dialogue going about the fee situation itself. It is important, and it is an issue that many of us are concerned about, at least judging by the poll response in this thread.

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby nfire » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:24 pm

coloradokevin wrote:
Turning it into a Liberal vs Conservative debate was NOT my intention, and is NOT the issue that I'd like this thread to focus on (we all know this forum is sharply divided on their voting preferences).

But, PLEASE lets keep a decent dialogue going about the fee situation itself. It is important, and it is an issue that many of us are concerned about, at least judging by the poll response in this thread.

=D>

i'd be in favor of a $10 fee just because i bet it would keep the crowds down a good bit. would be worth the small upgrade.

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby SteveBonowski » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:25 pm

Shawnee Bob wrote: "You can have a discussion about fees, a policy issue, without going into red/blue, liberal/conservative........

I have to laugh a bit at that; in part because it is a true statement. When the Vail Pass Task Force was having its fee increase discussion 3-4 years ago, politics NEVER came into the discussion. We all looked; snowmobilers & non-motorized recreationists alike; at what our costs were then and what services were being provided by the fee. We considered how our costs were going up; the VPTF does own and maintain a snowcat for trail grooming. While none of us were happy to see an increase, we ultimately agreed that a modest fee increase was needed so we could continue to provide our users with the same level of services.

There were no liberals or conservatives in the room; just recreationists working on a common program and goal.

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby oldschoolczar » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:28 pm

nfire wrote:
LtWitte wrote:
Shawnee Bob wrote:You can have a discussion about fees, a POLICY issue, without going into red/blue, liberal/conservative GOP/Dem crap. People are just tempted to run back to that framework because EVERYTHING is being politicized. And it's tiring.


What good is a POLICY discussion if you can't do anything about the policy? Who makes policy?...Congress

Therefore, any policy discussion must be of a political nature or what's the point?

STFU


=D>
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I'll cut the hearts from pharoahs"
-Tom Waits

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby SilverLynx » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:29 pm

nfire wrote:
coloradokevin wrote:
Turning it into a Liberal vs Conservative debate was NOT my intention, and is NOT the issue that I'd like this thread to focus on (we all know this forum is sharply divided on their voting preferences).

But, PLEASE lets keep a decent dialogue going about the fee situation itself. It is important, and it is an issue that many of us are concerned about, at least judging by the poll response in this thread.

=D>

i'd be in favor of a $10 fee just because i bet it would keep the crowds down a good bit. would be worth the small upgrade.

Hey, if you don't like crowds.... 8-[ 13ers! And you didn't hear that from me. :wink:
"I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear."
~Nelson Mandela

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition."
~Steve Jobs

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Re: 14'er Climbing Fees Might Be Considered

Postby Scott P » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:29 pm

...............
Last edited by Scott P on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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