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Forest Service 14er Fee

Colorado 14ers access and fee issues only, please
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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby AlpineHigh » Sat May 15, 2010 8:50 pm

g wrote:
coloradokevin wrote:But, the USFS can keep the Mt. Goliath building and the little gardens around it... that has little to do with wilderness, and I never asked for that development. A road and a trailhead is all I'll require, thanks :)

I'm so confused -- I thought Denver Botanical Gardens ran Mt. Goliath.

http://www.botanicgardens.org/content/our-gardens-mount-goliath

I guess the USFS commandeered that too. At any rate, that site says paying the USFS fee is required, even if you've already paid for a Denver Botanic Gardens membership. What a racket!


You are correct sir, Denver Botanic Gardens designed and installed the alpine gardens. They have volunteers up at the nature center weekly if I remember correctly. The Forest Service hasn't "commandeered" it - they have not altered it's state, and they mostly spend their time keeping young visitors and adults alike from trampling the alpine plants. You do not need a Denver Botanic Gardens membership to enjoy the gardens (although maybe an agreement hasn't been worked out to allow DBG members free parking? something that should be organized if it doesn't already exist - I agree).

Oh, and I believe the nature center structure was built with donated money (names are on the plaque) in honor of Dos Chapelle - "founder and Executive Director of Volunteers for Outdoor Colorado" (as quoted from the USFS website - lies I assure you ;) jk... Dos oversaw the construction of improved trails and the rehabilitation of over-used resources and had the idea for the nature Center in the first place - not the USFS (as coloradokevin thought?)
"The mountains are calling, and I must go."
-John Muir

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby JE242 » Sat May 15, 2010 9:39 pm

Lost you.
Last edited by JE242 on Mon May 17, 2010 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby OBC13 » Sat May 15, 2010 9:59 pm

ezsuperkev wrote: I just wanted to be the first one to post about it so I could claim to be the instigator of the chaos that follows.


I will gladly contribute to the chaos.
There is a link a the bottom the the article where you can submit comments to the Forest Service through the end of the summer.
After reading the article I have a few thoughts. Are there really 500,000 people climbing the 14ers each year? A survey on 14erworld is running 62% that this is an inflated number. As for CFI executive director Lloyd Athearn, I am surprised by his attitude. He proudly states that he is "someone who grew up and had formative climbing experience out in the Pacific Northwest" and further that "frankly anyone from Oregon, Washington, California, would be surprised that virtually all the peaks in this state are available without fees, without permits, without registration.”
This is an elitist attitude typical of many of out of state "experts" that move to Colorado. If the life and ways of the people of the coasts are so great, why do they move here? The trouble is that they are easily satisfied as long as life in Colorado is better than where they came from. Never mind that this "lowest common denominator" approach results in misery for those of us who can remember the state when it was a really great place to live. Ignorance is bliss for these people but it is still ignorance.
I agree with Kitty Benzar that "it is wrong to have to pay to go for a walk in the mountains."
OBC13

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby Greenhouseguy » Sat May 15, 2010 10:04 pm

JE242 wrote:Thanks for spelling tip!......I have learned one thing about the14ers forum today. If you don't exactly agree, keep your mouth shut. I'll stick to reading trip reports from now on. jeesh.


If there's one thing that I've learned from 14ers.com, it's that it's possible to disagree respectfully. Possible, but not likely.
"May your boulder be your blessing." - Aron Ralston

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby coloradokevin » Sat May 15, 2010 10:16 pm

JE242 wrote:Lost cause brotha. Right-wing talking points, refusal to listen to reason,refusal to have civil conversation, paranoia, hating EVERY government agency, spouting rubbish without all of the facts. Typical behavior from the ignorant and uneducated. If these few knuckleheads are on the 14er, I am sticking to the 13ers.


Just because we are against mountain use fees does not necessarily mean that we are anti-government, or paranoid, or ignorant. I've explained the rationale behind my beliefs on this subject, and I have not done so in a manner that was insulting or uncivilized.

Moreover, I can tell you that I am a governement employee myself (law enforcement), and I still don't support the development and fee structure that is popping up in/near/around public forest/wilderness areas!


AlpineHigh wrote:Oh, and I believe the nature center structure was built with donated money (names are on the plaque) in honor of Dos Chapelle - "founder and Executive Director of Volunteers for Outdoor Colorado" (as quoted from the USFS website - lies I assure you ;) jk... Dos oversaw the construction of improved trails and the rehabilitation of over-used resources and had the idea for the nature Center in the first place - not the USFS (as coloradokevin thought?)



Thanks for the clarification, AH.

I have to admit that I was not aware that the building was built with donated money, and I never really looked into the management associated with the botanical gardens. Honestly, this revelation only serves to further confuse the issue to me, as this is one more area in the Mt. Evans fee system that is apparently not part of the USFS (the road is owned by the state, and the Summit Lake park is a city and county of Denver mountain park).

So, what ammenities am I paying for along the Mt. Evans road; thus far we've eliminated Mt. Goliath, the road itself, and the Summit Lake area? What if a person merely wants to drive to Summit Lake and park? I've done that on numerous occasions, without pushing on to the summit... Denver parks do not charge fees, so why am I paying to drive on a state road for the purpose of visiting a FREE city park?


BTW, just for clarification on my own travel habits, I already hold an annual federal lands pass (I think they now call it the "America the Beautiful" pass?), so this is largely a subject of principle in my mind!

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby 2_Salukis » Sat May 15, 2010 10:47 pm

OBC13 wrote:As for CFI executive director Lloyd Athearn, I am surprised by his attitude. He proudly states that he is "someone who grew up and had formative climbing experience out in the Pacific Northwest" and further that "frankly anyone from Oregon, Washington, California, would be surprised that virtually all the peaks in this state are available without fees, without permits, without registration.”


I'm surprised that peaks in OR, WA, and CA cost money to use. Then again, there's a reason I settled down in CO and not CA -- a big reason being the taxes and fees.

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby AlpineHigh » Sun May 16, 2010 8:02 am

coloradokevin wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, AH.

I have to admit that I was not aware that the building was built with donated money, and I never really looked into the management associated with the botanical gardens. Honestly, this revelation only serves to further confuse the issue to me, as this is one more area in the Mt. Evans fee system that is apparently not part of the USFS (the road is owned by the state, and the Summit Lake park is a city and county of Denver mountain park).

So, what ammenities am I paying for along the Mt. Evans road; thus far we've eliminated Mt. Goliath, the road itself, and the Summit Lake area? What if a person merely wants to drive to Summit Lake and park? I've done that on numerous occasions, without pushing on to the summit... Denver parks do not charge fees, so why am I paying to drive on a state road for the purpose of visiting a FREE city park?


BTW, just for clarification on my own travel habits, I already hold an annual federal lands pass (I think they now call it the "America the Beautiful" pass?), so this is largely a subject of principle in my mind!


NP - I agree that it is confusing, the stucture was built with no long term plan for staffing, in my mind that is why the Forest Service staffs it. I suppose your fees cover the USFS staff at Mt.Goliath as well as the bathroom facilities there (the FS has to pay to pump the vault toilets, stock them with tp and clean them). I'm not exactly clear on how the ownership works at Summit Lake (although you are certainly correct, it is Denver Mountain Parks - but again, I suppose it is the FS staffing there - cleaning and pumping the bathrooms, and the interp. programs offered there). I hope I am not trying to come off as justifying the entrance fee because I will not deny that it is certainly a question of legality - just trying to give you an idea of where I see the fee money going (even though it could likely be into the fund for the district).

Does the federal lands pass give you "free access" to Mt.Evans? I'm thinking about getting one myself this season as I plan to spend some time in the National Parks as well as other fee areas (but mostly I'll be in the IPW cause it's free!).
"The mountains are calling, and I must go."
-John Muir

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby coloradokevin » Sun May 16, 2010 10:18 am

AlpineHigh wrote:Does the federal lands pass give you "free access" to Mt.Evans? I'm thinking about getting one myself this season as I plan to spend some time in the National Parks as well as other fee areas (but mostly I'll be in the IPW cause it's free!).


The pass does work at Mt. Evans, but it is now running something like $85/year, rather than the $60/year that it had been for the past decade or so.

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby bonehead » Sun May 16, 2010 12:03 pm

goinforawalk wrote:Also, I'm really curious to know what my story "smells" like?


Well since you asked;
You witnessed a 13 year old engaging in dangerous and destructive behavior and it took you a whole minute to build up the nerve to say anything.
And then found it necessary to re-assure everyone here that you were polite about it. Stinky.
I called you out for the cheap bigoted comment you posted, but instead of simply manning up, you posted a hate filled attack on me.

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby JE242 » Sun May 16, 2010 2:17 pm

hmmm...]
Last edited by JE242 on Mon May 17, 2010 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby cfb » Sun May 16, 2010 2:24 pm

All in All, the USFS does a great job. They are way underfunded and wild land fires eat up a huge portion of their discretionary funding. Of all the fees that are collected by USFS, NPS, BLM and other federal land management agencies, they can only retain a fraction for operation expenses. The rest goes into the General Fund of the US Treasury. I don't mind paying extra fees if it result in the better management of our natural resources. Give these guys a break. Their employees, as a whole, are extremely dedicated and whatever fees we pay for using these resources is a bargain.

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Re: Forrest Service 14er Fee

Postby JE242 » Sun May 16, 2010 3:07 pm

Classic.... (Just trying to end dicussion of fees, they are going nowhere).

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