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MRA at Maroon Bells

Colorado 14er peak questions and conditions should be posted here. 14er Trip Reports
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Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Postby YouAndWhatGendarme » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:24 pm

Plus you get the folks that think it's some kind of 'mountain art' and so they start building them in random places because they think cairn are pretty.
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Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Postby gb » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:50 pm

CO Native wrote:It's not so much about cheating as it is realizing that cairns are pretty unreliable. Anyone can build one any where they want, and unfortunately they do. If it's about cheating I'd say it was more of an issue 15 years ago before climbing the 14ers became so popular. If you saw a cairn then, odds were pretty good it was guiding you the right way. Now it seems it's more likely they are built off route than on.


I remember plenty of bad cairns leading to dead-ends on the Bells traverse 20 or so years ago so I'm not sure it's a new thing.

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Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Postby Jim Davies » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:53 pm

My thought also - the difference today is more quantity than quality. People haven't changed, they've always liked to mark their route even if they don't know where they're going. :)
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Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Postby Scott P » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:10 pm

Scott P wrote:
Very recently, someone died in Zion rappelling in the Subway using a non standard anchor. Someone had left an anchor (a rappel sling around a log) off the standard route at a waterfall and someone else whom came along used it and died. Very tragic. The person whom left the anchor came foreward in a forum, but really got chastised. He had left it in order to do a more challenging rappel directly through the waterfall. Still, it wasn't his fault someone died using it.[/i]

If you're talking about the 74 year old man that died last month (Yoshio Hosobuchi), I'd like to offer a bit of clarification. The issue wasn't with a non-standard anchor; slings off of logjams and debris are quite standard in canyoneering (as are even sketchier raps off of bags of water or sand when 'ghosting' a canyon - coming from a climbing background myself, many common anchors feel bizarrely unsafe compared to the SERENE anchors you learn in alpine rock/snow courses).


Comments:

If you're talking about the 74 year old man that died last month (Yoshio Hosobuchi), I'd like to offer a bit of clarification.


Yes; that's the exact incident.

The issue wasn't with a non-standard anchor;


Yes, that's what I mean by cairns, guidebooks, rappel slings, and the forest service aren’t really what is killing people and it’s always tragic when someone dies, but sometimes you can’t just point fingers or blame to things that may have some contribution, but aren’t the real problem. The person whom left the anchor was blamed, but it wasn’t his fault (as you point out).

slings off of logjams and debris are quite standard in canyoneering


Of course. (PS, I’m Scott Patterson, the guy on the cover of those canyoneering guidebooks/websites/etc. )

(as are even sketchier raps off of bags of water or sand when 'ghosting' a canyon - coming from a climbing background myself, many common anchors feel bizarrely unsafe compared to the SERENE anchors you learn in alpine rock/snow courses).


Yep. Just did Quandary direct with Tom Jones a week ago. :-D

By non-standard, I meant that it was off the standard Subway route, rather than something not typically used in canyoneering. The anchor was set up to make a more challenging rap directly through the waterfall instead of using the standard route on the left (LDC). The party who got in trouble thought they were on the standard route and died using the anchor (as you point out, there are many more details to this, but that’s another discussion). As you point out it wasn’t the anchors fault, or the person who left the anchor. It was a terrible tragedy, but the person who left the anchor was really chastised.

Cairns, slings and the forest service aren’t the real cause of such accidents. As you point out, the sling really had little to do with the real cause of the accident. Same can be said concerning cairns.

Thanks for the comments and I hope this help explains what I meant about the Subway incident/non stnadard. :-D

Of course, I have no problem with removing "bad" cairns.
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Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Postby highpilgrim » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:04 pm

YouAndWhatGendarme wrote:Plus you get the folks that think it's some kind of 'mountain art' and so they start building them in random places because they think cairn are pretty.


Who says they're not?

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http://www.ucblueash.edu/artcomm/web/w2005_2006/maria_Goldsworthy/TEST/index.html
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Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Postby iceman » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:17 pm

Of course. (PS, I’m Scott Patterson, the guy on the cover of those canyoneering guidebooks/websites/etc. )


Off topic, but did you put out a guidebook and do you have a website? Where can I find them?

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Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Postby ryankrameretc » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:49 pm

I did the Bells Traverse on September 23rd. We didn't have any trouble with route finding, but two members of our group had done it before. We did see several false cairns on the descent of South Maroon that seemed to lead down some awful looking gulleys.

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Re: MRA at Maroon Bells

Postby Scott P » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:55 pm

Off topic, but did you put out a guidebook and do you have a website? Where can I find them?


I have written a guidebook, but it has to do with mountains rather than canyons.

I just meant that there are lots of pictures of me/information from me in all those guidebooks/websites (Several years ago, I named many of the now popular canyons as well). You can find them in the following links. Because I know the authors, here are some of them.

I am in the following guidebook:

http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Canyoneering-Exploring-Rugged-Gorges/dp/0978961439/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349380742&sr=8-1&keywords=grand+canyoneering

I am on the back cover of the following book (and the previous edition as well):

http://www.amazon.com/Technical-Canyon-Guide-Colorado-Plateau/dp/094451023X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349380865&sr=1-2&keywords=technical+canyon+guide

I'm in all the following books and many others:

http://www.amazon.com/Non-Technical-Canyon-Colorado-Plateau-Edition/dp/0944510272/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Hiking-Exploring-Utahs-Rafael-Edition/dp/0944510175/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Websites:

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/trail1.htm

I mentioned this and my full name not to brag, but because the person making the post would probably recognize me. The poster whom I was responding to was using terms such as “ghosting” (I know the person whom coined the term) and pointing out water bag rappels (I know the person whom pioneered the method), so I assumed we have mutual friends and will probably recognize each other (I’m guessing that he is familiar with those books).

I was just putting a face to the name and of course saying that I was familiar with the methods being spoke with (I think my use of “non-standard” was misunderstood). Always awesome to meet fellow Canyoneers. :-D Too off topic though, so this is the last post I will make on the subject.
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