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Culebra Peak - scam or Legit?

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Pay or Steal

Pay
68
70%
Steal
29
30%
 
Total votes : 97
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Postby nickonov » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:56 pm

Dan England wrote:As someone who thought my quest was going to be forever thwarted because of some a-hole who didn't want to allow people on his land, I was thrilled to death to pay $100 for a nine-hour day (cheap entertainment and I took my time) to climb Culebra and Red Mountain with the good folks over at 14erworld.com.

Please don't try to steal it. I want to encourage those nice landowners to leave their land open to anyone, including climbers.

If I read this correctly, it sounds like you "stole" Red Mountain -- by not paying the $150 the ranch charges for summiting both. I would personally have no problem with that, having considered it during my own quick ascent up Culebra last weekend. But I digress...

The fee affects different people differently. Some just see it as the cost of a hobby, others are opposed in principle, and many can ill afford it (though it's not much more than the cost of a tank of gas they need to get there). Like several posters have previously said, individuals should come to their own conclusions and act accordingly. The ranch is pretty well-run, and I have a sneaking suspicion that contacting the owner (by starting with Carole) with specific requests for a fee waiver would be met in kind.

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Postby jesseskico » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:24 pm

I ended up paying after waiting for a year because it was my last one to do and to end such a bunch of great climbs with conflict, or bad karma by stealing (however anyone feels about it philisophically the owners would think I was), or any other bad vibe to it. so i went with an open mind and it was ok to me. I was glad to be done..............jesse
just go...............

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Postby Matt » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:34 pm

jesseskico wrote:per montem ad astra, & who the #$*& is John Gault?


It's John Gault again... But we already know who he is, right?
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Postby CorduroyCalves » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:20 pm

Mel McKinney wrote:Someone asked earlier if there is another route up Culebra. There is, but the landowner is serious about pressing charges against tresspassers. At least Cielo Vista Ranch allows individuals (complete strangers, no less) to access the mountain. Unfortunately, landowners do have to protect themselves from frivolous lawsuits by shutting off the land or by requiring payment and signed waivers.

It may not be the most "exciting" peak, but it offers beautiful views and the near solitude of knowing there will be only 20 people [b]max on the peak at the same time as you.[/b] Probably only 500 people per year climb this mountain. It shows in the lack of erosion. It's worth the money and effort if you're wanting to make the top of all the 14ers.


That's not my definition of solitude, or "near" solitude, for that matter.
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Postby 14ers4me » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:33 pm

I didnt read the whole thread so it might have been mentioned but does anyone know if they are willing to negotiate if that is someones last peak or something like that? Last 14er i mean. Not that i am anywhere close, i was just wondering.
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Postby gdthomas » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:58 pm

14ers4me wrote:I didnt read the whole thread so it might have been mentioned but does anyone know if they are willing to negotiate if that is someones last peak or something like that? Last 14er i mean. Not that i am anywhere close, i was just wondering.


There's no negotiating. They could care less if its your first or last.

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Postby alanb » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:59 am

This thread comes up at least once a year and I still continue to say that if you want to climb this peak then you must pay. Plain and simple its entirely on private property and they have the right to charge people to access it. If you don't like it, don't climb it.
"The mountains are calling, therefore I must go."
tweaked by me but originally John Muir

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Postby jwproulx » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:18 am

pbakwin wrote:Also, I always love those signs on City of Boulder Open Space:
"Open Space and Mountain Parks - No Public Access".


Damn the City of Boulder. They just closed my favorite route up Green Mountain.

alanb wrote:This thread comes up at least once a year and I still continue to say that if you want to climb this peak then you must pay. Plain and simple its entirely on private property and they have the right to charge people to access it. If you don't like it, don't climb it.


This argument is not compelling. Why should they have this right? Who gave it to them? Suppose I owned a restaurant in Alabama in 1950. I'd have the legal right to deny access to black people. Doesn't mean I'd have the moral right to do so. While denying access to hikers is much less severe a restriction, the fact that there is a legal right to do so doesn't imply that it's legit.

Of course my argument can go to far by leading to anarchy; there is a tension in civilized society between accepting laws that you don't agree with and civil disobedience in the interest of changing them. I'd like to see an America with rambling rights like they have in much of Europe; I don't think that poaching Culebra will help effect that change -- I'm not sure anything will.

I say pay for it, because they seem to be good stewards and it's not that expensive, all things considered.

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Postby Mel McKinney » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:45 pm

VW Lover,
I'm assuming you've been on most of the other 14ers. 20 people or less in one day is about as close as you can get to solitude on a 14er (on most 14ers and their routes, anyway). :wink:
:wink:
And Culebra is pretty pristine (no random trails leading all over the place).

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Postby jspydr » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:00 am

jwproulx wrote:I say pay for it, because they seem to be good stewards and it's not that expensive, all things considered.


It's not all that expensive when you look at it from the landowners perspective. Consider this, it is an elk ranch. The typical cost to hunt a bull elk on a private ranch is in the neighborhood of $3-$5k, per person. If you want to have someone come with you to take pictures, they can expect to pay ~$1k, just to follow you around. $100 for a day hike, is pocket change compared to what people pay to hunt. I also wonder what the costs to own a ranch like that are, property tax, etc. If I was the owner, I'd probably be more concerned about the liability risk from the hikers, than the hunters. That might be part of the reason for the fee, keep out the riff raff who might be sue happy.

I used to rock climb on a ranch in Texas that charged an access fee. Access is always a touchy thing in situations like that. You certainly don't want to abuse the privilege and cause the loss of access for everyone else. I want to hike Culebra one of these days, I hope they don't change their minds about access before I get my chance. I'll also wait to do Bross/Lincoln/Democrat until they are re-opened in the interest of respecting the landowners rights.

I guess the gist of this post is this - the climbing community will have a reputation, are we going to act in such a way as to improve it, or degrade it.
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Postby CorduroyCalves » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:00 am

jspydr wrote:
jwproulx wrote:I say pay for it, because they seem to be good stewards and it's not that expensive, all things considered.


It's not all that expensive when you look at it from the landowners perspective. Consider this, it is an elk ranch. The typical cost to hunt a bull elk on a private ranch is in the neighborhood of $3-$5k, per person. If you want to have someone come with you to take pictures, they can expect to pay ~$1k, just to follow you around. $100 for a day hike, is pocket change compared to what people pay to hunt. I also wonder what the costs to own a ranch like that are, property tax, etc. If I was the owner, I'd probably be more concerned about the liability risk from the hikers, than the hunters. That might be part of the reason for the fee, keep out the riff raff who might be sue happy.


I was wondering if you could explain this point a little more, how people with guns pose less of a liability than people with backpacks. Would you still feel the same way if Dick Cheney was hunting at this ranch? :wink:
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Postby Matt » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:35 am

Mel McKinney wrote:VW Lover,
I'm assuming you've been on most of the other 14ers. 20 people or less in one day is about as close as you can get to solitude on a 14er (on most 14ers and their routes, anyway). :wink:
:wink:
And Culebra is pretty pristine (no random trails leading all over the place).


Mel, you've been to the San Juans, right?
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