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Culebra Peak - scam or Legit?

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Pay or Steal

Pay
68
69%
Steal
30
31%
 
Total votes : 98
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Postby CSD » Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:54 pm

Scott Patterson wrote:
In Scandinavia, there is a societal understanding that everyone is free to move through the countryside, regardless of whether the land is public or private, provided they are respectful.


Extend that from Scandinavia to almost the entire world outside places like miltary bases and the like. The above is actually true for almost the entire world. Almost no one in the world gives a second thought for someone wanted to cross a cow pasture or something to climb a mountain. The US is one of the only places in the world I'm aware of that has the opposing attitude.

In most countries, crossing private land and things like pastures and trails through croplands and farms to climb mountains is just a way of life without a second thought given.


Other countries don't have the liability issues thanks to a sue-crazy country like we have in the US.

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Postby 2_Salukis » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:43 am

Gahugafuga wrote:In Scandinavia, there is a societal understanding that everyone is free to move through the countryside, regardless of whether the land is public or private, provided they are respectful.

allemansret


That's alright, in the US there seems to be a growing societal understanding that everything comes free (or should be free for the taking), regardless of whether it tramples on someone else's rights. Of course you also should be respectful about it, when you take it.

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See both sides

Postby seannunn » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:30 pm

It does suck that I will have to pay someday. It might be different if they intentionally charged something ridiculous (like $1000) to climb it just because they knew they could get away with it (like condos do around Christmas time). $100 isn't that much, when you figure out how much money you would have spent in gas, food, vehicle maintenance, etc, to climb the other 53.

Just remember what someone said earlier: would you want someone camping out in your front yard, peeing in it, etc.? Just because the guy has a BIG yard doesn't make it any different.

Sean Nunn
Raytown MO

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Postby usfgal » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:42 pm

Steal This Peak! Hail Abbie Hoffman! :lol:
Hahaha!
Seriously, I can see both sides, too. I completely agree with Aubrey.

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Postby michaelverdone » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:50 pm

The $100 dollar price is actually low according to demand estimates for 14er's. A recent paper suggest the average person is willing to pay $300+ to climb a 14er. This cost contains expenditures on gas, food, lodging, etc...

From a the recent academic paper:

"While our consumer surplus values are strikingly high compared to other recreation studies, there is some validation of a high willingness to pay(WTP) using other information from Culebra Peak, one of the Fourteener’s that is completely on private land. The private landowners charge a $150 per person access fee for Culebra/Red Mountain. While this is about half our estimate of maximum WTP, the fact our consumer surplus is larger than an a uniform access fee charged by a private land owner is sensible, since only a perfectly price discriminating monopolist could extract all the consumer surplus from hikers."
Last edited by michaelverdone on Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby cheeseburglar » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:56 pm

The only reason US citizens are concerned about private property is because people come onto their property and steal their cheese!

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Postby Chicago Transplant » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:03 pm

Culebra is completely private, there is no public land on or around it. As a result there are no alternate routes. The only legitimate way to climb the peak is to pay the $100. In fact it was never public, the US Government has never managed it or any part of it.

I like the philosophy that the other 52 ranked 14ers are free, so its less than $2 per peak. Or pay $150 for Culebra and Red and the highest hundred go to a buck fifty each :wink:

I hate the idea of paying for it as much as anyone else, but with $80 lift tickets and $200 greens fees I guess its not that bad. I think we are just spoiled because our sport is largely free from admission costs.

As Scott said, there are plenty of other summits that are on private property, just most of them are abandoned mining property and not an issue because no one cares to enforce it. A good number of the claims are probably owned by some miner's great grandkid who doesn't even know its theirs. Climb it while you can! Before they figure out they can charge $100 bucks for Sherman too :lol:

PS - How much does the train cost to get to Chicago Basin? People pay for that and those peaks are perfectly free, they are just too lazy to backpack in the extra mileage :wink:

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Postby Yog » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:36 pm

There are valid points on both sides of this argument. As much as the idea of the cloak/dagger/mtn ninja/pirate appeals to my younger sense, my older sense tells me it's not worth the risk to climb a mountain like this. Don't need a rap sheet, even if I don't necessarily agree with people owning a whole damn mountain!!!!! At least they're nice and give people access unlike Lou Pei or Pee or whatever. If it were Capitol or Snowmass (or similar), that would be different. If it were like those, I wouldn't mind paying either. It's not like those two mountains. It's more like Bross in my mind. I'm glad it's pristine and that people love it for that. There are other places I'd rather go for that sort of environment. On the other hand, the 14ers.com group that went up there...I was actually a little envious! It looked like a right fun time with a bunch of good people!

But for now, I solved this Culebra problem. I bought a bottle of White-Out. Culebrawhat? :D
. . .Now, after the hours of torment . . . I have nothing more to do than breathe . . .I am nothing more than a single, narrow, gasping lung, floating over the mists and the summits.
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Postby Chicago Transplant » Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:02 pm

But for now, I solved this Culebra problem. I bought a bottle of White-Out. Culebrawhat?


Or we could just give it to New Mexico, its close enough to the border no one would notice. Then they could charge $500 to climb it because it would be "Highpoint" :lol:

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Postby FlyGirl » Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:53 pm

What exactly is justifiable about stealing something? I know I couldn't feel good about it.

Scenario: Oh! I see Culebra is on your completed list, did you really pay 100 bucks to climb that? Well no, as a matter of fact I didn't, I poached it.

I'm glad that won't be how my conversation will go. Thievery to obtain a personal goal actually takes away from the achievement in my books!
Last edited by FlyGirl on Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Move like a heron, not like a water buffalo


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Postby Matt » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:15 pm

Chicago Transplant wrote:Or we could just give it to New Mexico, its close enough to the border no one would notice. Then they could charge $500 to climb it because it would be "Highpoint" :lol:


And I was so in agreement with your earlier post. :wink:

benners wrote:hehe, marmotman is legit. I know because he is my climbing partner and lives in the room next to me.


LOL. I have also seen this marmotman, atop Uncompahgre a few weeks ago. He looked pretty real to me.

Skasgaard wrote:
But, then I'm reminded of that native American query, "How can you buy or sell the earth?"


I think of that every time this issue comes up. Since I work and hang out with Natives, I realize their ways are often superior to our greed-driven culture, and many of their troubles are because of effort to conform to bilagana ways (if you're white, you're bilagana).

ccunnin wrote:But....are there any other routes up that dumb mountain?


Someone asked me that up at Lake Como... It's surrounded by open nothingness that's private. You'd have to be like a ninja, or make all your progress at night.

Overall, I say pay for Culebra, for the reasons Chicago T gave.
The hunting fees on ranches in the area are staggering, and make even greens fees seem like pocket change. Google Chama, elk hunting and ranches to get an idea.
For the Silver Prick, on the other hand, I have zero respect. His kind of greed and arrogance is beyond forgiveness. If Ted Turner can allow countless people to drive across his ranch in Montana (an FS campground is at the end of a 20 mile road past his buffalo and elk), then this small potatoes asswipe can, too.
We are all greater artists than we realize -FWN
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone. -HDT
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Culebra july 15th

Postby karadiamond » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:42 pm

Hey! We will be climbing Culebra on the 15th of this month! I thought it was weird that we had to do something to climb this mountain! I've done most the peaks, but last summer I saw TalusMonkeysreport and knew this was a great site to get on the peak. My husband was shocked that we are doing it in a few weeks. As this moutain is talked about as a year waitlist! This site proved me wrong and I can't wait to meet the rest of the group at 7 at san luis lodge!!! Happy trails!

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