Article: Mountain Climbing for the Over 50 Set- WSJ

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Re: Article: Mountain Climbing for the Over 50 Set- WSJ

Postby oldschool » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:21 pm

so what if people want to use a guide? So what if they didn't do it the "way" you think it should be done? So what if they brag about it? What business is that of yours? Why does it bother you so much? What's the real reason? Life gets better for all involved when less time is spent trying to control others and spending less time trying to interpret the actions of others. So what if.........

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Re: Article: Mountain Climbing for the Over 50 Set- WSJ

Postby Dex » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:29 pm

oldschool wrote: So what if.........

You inspired me to write this poem.

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!

Copyright DEX 2013
Montani Semper Liberi
"Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous." Barry Ritholtz

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Re: Article: Mountain Climbing for the Over 50 Set- WSJ

Postby Skip Perkins » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:35 pm

Dex, is your real name really Rudyard Kipling?
Perseverance - The courage to ignore the obvious wisdom of turning back.

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Re: Article: Mountain Climbing for the Over 50 Set- WSJ

Postby shredthegnar10 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:43 am

I (would like to) think that most of the people who post on this site -- whether they have used a guide ever in their life, use guides regularly, or were lucky enough to have friends/parents to teach them mountaineering skills (because seriously, no one is born with the knowledge of how to self-arrest or climb a rope out of a crevasse or build a rock/snow anchor or use crampons) -- are genuine enough in their appreciation for/love of the mountains that they go for the experience of climbing, not to have a trophy peak to brag to their coworkers/golfing buddies about.

There's people who use guides to gain knowledge and experience and/or to have a safer trip overall, and then there's the "golfers turned pseudo-mountaineers" that this article seems to be talking about/targeting. I've encountered both, and I understand the difference.

PS The first time I climbed on a glacier was with a guide, in 2010. Not sure how I would have gotten into actual mountaineering without that experience, but maybe I should take Cayambe off the "accomplishments" section on my profile just to be safe?
There's a fine line between being a badass and being a dumbass.


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Re: Article: Mountain Climbing for the Over 50 Set- WSJ

Postby TallGrass » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:09 pm

Dave B wrote: The group I was referring to were zero-experience asshats. This was immediately evident from a brief conversation with them. Also evident was that they lacked any respect or interest in the history or discipline of mountaineering and instead wanted a trophy summit that they could brag about back home in Chicago.
JROSKA wrote:he seems to be encouraging successful people to jump right into difficult, Class 5, roped climbing, regardless of one's prior experience level, and I don't like that message.

A more common pursuit by "Over 50 Set" looking for a new "hobby" is motorcycling where some like to drop $$,$$$ at the cruiser dealer (one brand dominates), add another $,$$$ worth of shiny or "performance" stuff, minimal gear, and then think they can go hit the road to a South Dakota rally aboard a 600+ pound rigged with little if any saddle time.

The issue as I see it isn't whether it's fine to do (I could care less what they spend), it's whether or not the person is trying to pass them self off to others as something they are not, worse still if they act like their financial acquisitions trump others' skill, knowledge, or accomplishments and thus should be accorded the same or higher level of respect. Kind of deflating when those-in-the-know are less interested in his Daytrade-Glide he rode up from Nebraska than the old ratty, over-laden Honda SuperCub a kid rode over the Rockies from Oregon.

A second issue arises if they get in over their head and draw negative attention to activity (e.g. accident, rescue, death) -- like not knowing how to make a turn or swerve around an obstacle.

Oman wrote:
Gabriel wrote:Guided climbing is to climbing what prostitution is to lovemaking. Some people just have to pay for what they can't do on their own . G
This is a rich statement from a guy who lists his occupation here as "teacher." So if I send a kid to you to learn differential equations, or history, or logic, or whatever it is that you teach, then that makes the kid a john -- and you a hooker?

Oman, you're confusing comprehensive classroom learning with situational (limited) in-the-field and on-the-fly learning, that both get the same experience, and that both should be awarded (e.g. degree) the same.

Significant difference between taking an avy class versus paying someone who'll just help you cross that bridge when you get to it. I know some will try to pre-load as much as possible, but there is also the tendency of some to blow training or learning ahead of time as "that's what I'm paying you $$$ - $,$$$ for (because $$$ is easier for me to come by than time)." Those types will try to rush a guide, instructor, teacher with "yeah, yeah, yeah, just show me the bare minimum so we can get moving." Nothing wrong with an accelerated learning curve provided it fits, which means both the teacher and student should both be attune to and respect when the pace needs to slow down.

Not sure if I'll do more 14ers. The trip reports are too tiring. :wink:

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Re: Article: Mountain Climbing for the Over 50 Set- WSJ

Postby speth » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:48 pm

Welcome to The only mountaineering related website in the world that has more responses to WSJ articles than discussions on mountains, weather reports and requests for climbing partners combined.
I'll be damned if I feel like I will ever know anything, but if we don't keep moving on that last hill, we'll never know what's on the other side.
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Sarcasm or not, it's not even funny to post something like this. Not at this time. Reported.
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