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Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby gdthomas » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:20 pm

Harbaugh is figuring if the Ravens wait long enough to fly to Denver bad weather will keep their plane from landing and spare them the pain of a humiliating defeat.

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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby Floyd » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:33 pm

TehWoopig wrote:What do you guys think? I think the "evidence" presented in the article lack substance. If I'm not mistaking, there are a lot of people that come from lower elevations to hike 14ers as soon as they get there to alleviate altitude issues. I'm in Texas (home is at 33 feet no less) and the last time I was there, I went on several hikes to about 12k feet around Massive and Elbert with little issues. Several days later, I really struggled with the standard Elbert route. O2 saturation was down to 80% after hiking uphill for a few minutes. It seems like you'll do better right off for the first 24 to maybe 36 hours and then it starts to affect you quite a bit. After that, it is probably best to wait 3 weeks minimum. That's what I've gathered from my own personal experience anyways. Just wanted to see what everyone else though.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/01/09/john-harbaugh-bringing-ravens-denver-late-big-mistake/18051/


Football is a completely different world than going for a hike. We played in Denver when I was with the Browns and coming here is tough. Although I didn't play in the game, it was definitely an issue with the other guys. Even when I came home in the offseason, it took a couple of days to get used to it again. For what it's worth, it's just as hard if not harder going the other way. New Orleans signed me in 2001 and I got off a plane from Denver around 11 Tuesday night and was on the practice field at 9 on Wednesday morning. The humidity absolutely floored me. This made for some fun ribbing from the guys down there, but it was near incapacitating. In my opinion, the short week & cross country flight for a very old team that just had 80 defensive plays last Sunday is going to have just as much, if not more, of an impact.

As far as Harbaugh's reasoning goes, I don't see the logic since sitting in a hotel (or even the last walk-through) isn't going to prepare your lungs for a game. I see it more as an excuse to maximize his time at home to prepare. If a team is going west to east more than 2 time zones, they will often travel Friday (for Sunday games) to adjust to the time change. You don't have that issue with east to west travel, but if the flight is long enough they usually travel 2 days in advance and have the last practice somewhere local to the game.
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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby Jim Davies » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:43 pm

Does the cold weather favor either team? I'd guess the Ravens, just because they don't rely on finesse. I'm looking forward to seeing the end of Ray Lewis' career myself.
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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby Muskie5280 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:24 pm

Basing this on my recent USATF Coaching clinic:

Athletes have a window from their 1st-14th day at sea level to have a strong performance when they come down from elevation. Days 14-21 are when you're body really begins to adjust and performance decreases.

I assume their is a similar correlation with going higher in elevation as I have had several friends visit from sea level (Tennessee) and run PRs in half-marathons their first or second days out here.

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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby madbuck » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:34 pm

Muskie5280 wrote:Basing this on my recent USATF Coaching clinic:

Athletes have a window from their 1st-14th day at sea level to have a strong performance when they come down from elevation. Days 14-21 are when you're body really begins to adjust and performance decreases.

I assume their is a similar correlation with going higher in elevation as I have had several friends visit from sea level (Tennessee) and run PRs in half-marathons their first or second days out here.


Sorry, but it's absolutely not symmetric -- otherwise we should all alternate running high and then low exactly every 2 weeks!
The sea level observation is from the altitude acclimatization, e.g. increased red blood cells and other adaptations, take a week or two to disappear.
(Keeping in mind that we also, at elevation, are training at "impaired" speeds that are slower that what we might achieve in sea-level workouts).

The assumption of going higher in elevation, based on a handful of anecdotes, is (very much) likely due to a combination of the fact that impaired performance at altitude may take 24-48 hours to be noticeable, and our humidity/weather is favourable otherwise for fast times, in addition possible affects of solid competition, resting and tapering, and being prepared for a goal race that requires travel.

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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby madbuck » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:43 pm

TehWoopig wrote:What do you guys think? I think the "evidence" presented in the article lack substance.
http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/01/09/john-harbaugh-bringing-ravens-denver-late-big-mistake/18051/


I agree. The article uses an anecdote of 3 MMA fighters who arrived in 24 hours. If altitude had no affect, 1.5 of the 3 would be expected to win. 1 of them did. It would be impossible to make a useful statistical claim based on 3 instances, but this article tried.

There are 8(+) Broncos games per year that count, so teams have had plenty of time to test different theories. Nothing earth-shaking has come out, as far as we know.

The soccer studies are good because of the somewhat similar pacing.
Running and cycling has a wealth of data, and there have been general recommendations (e.g. in this book) that recommend arriving within 24 hours of competition. Some of the performance decrease during acclimatization is due to dehydration and impaired sleep, and arriving closer to the event mitigates some of those possibilities.

Being a team sport, though, the genetic variability in altitude response kind of sucks for other teams, because some players, at best, will be able to play close to their baseline; others will be impaired.

I agree that a fast-pace from the Broncos is a smart way to leverage this advantage at home, similar to Nuggets basketball.

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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby RoanMtnMan » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:12 pm

Floyd wrote:We played in Denver when I was with the Browns and coming here is tough. Although I didn't play in the game, it was definitely an issue with the other guys. Even when I came home in the offseason, it took a couple of days to get used to it again. For what it's worth, it's just as hard if not harder going the other way. New Orleans signed me in 2001 and I got off a plane from Denver around 11 Tuesday night and was on the practice field at 9 on Wednesday morning. The humidity absolutely floored me. This made for some fun ribbing from the guys down there, but it was near incapacitating. In my opinion, the short week & cross country flight for a very old team that just had 80 defensive plays last Sunday is going to have just as much, if not more, of an impact.

As far as Harbaugh's reasoning goes, I don't see the logic since sitting in a hotel (or even the last walk-through) isn't going to prepare your lungs for a game. I see it more as an excuse to maximize his time at home to prepare. If a team is going west to east more than 2 time zones, they will often travel Friday (for Sunday games) to adjust to the time change. You don't have that issue with east to west travel, but if the flight is long enough they usually travel 2 days in advance and have the last practice somewhere local to the game.


Well I guess this thread should be closed since I doubt there are any other NFL players that will chime in. Pretty cool. And way more valuable than news room speculations.
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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby madbuck » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:26 pm

RoanMtnMan wrote:
Floyd wrote:We played in Denver when I was with the Browns and coming here is tough. Although I didn't play in the game, it was definitely an issue with the other guys. Even when I came home in the offseason, it took a couple of days to get used to it again. For what it's worth, it's just as hard if not harder going the other way. New Orleans signed me in 2001 and I got off a plane from Denver around 11 Tuesday night and was on the practice field at 9 on Wednesday morning. The humidity absolutely floored me. This made for some fun ribbing from the guys down there, but it was near incapacitating. In my opinion, the short week & cross country flight for a very old team that just had 80 defensive plays last Sunday is going to have just as much, if not more, of an impact.

As far as Harbaugh's reasoning goes, I don't see the logic since sitting in a hotel (or even the last walk-through) isn't going to prepare your lungs for a game. I see it more as an excuse to maximize his time at home to prepare. If a team is going west to east more than 2 time zones, they will often travel Friday (for Sunday games) to adjust to the time change. You don't have that issue with east to west travel, but if the flight is long enough they usually travel 2 days in advance and have the last practice somewhere local to the game.


Well I guess this thread should be closed since I doubt there are any other NFL players that will chime in. Pretty cool. And way more valuable than news room speculations.


Good point, better said.
Did Harbaugh discover a secret new advantage? Doesn't seem like it.

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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby GeezerClimber » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:48 pm

Regardless of physiology, the altitude problem is clearly messing with their heads and that is enough.

Dave

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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby jsdratm » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:52 pm

They should move the stadium up to Leadville, they would probably win every home game.

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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby Jim Davies » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:16 am

Or Fairplay.
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Re: Bringing Ravens Defense to Denver Late...(altitude)

Postby jdorje » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:53 pm

madbuck wrote:Some of the performance decrease during acclimatization is due to ... impaired sleep, and arriving closer to the event mitigates some of those possibilities.


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