Please stay on the trail.

FAQ and threads for those just starting to hike the Colorado 14ers.
User avatar
Boggy B
Posts: 353
Joined: 10/14/2009
14er Checklist (58)
14ers in Winter (7)
13er Checklist (654)

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby Boggy B » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:24 pm

Now that this thread is safely off-topic.

DeucesWild wrote:Didn't mean to get your Mensa up, Bill. I've only been a member for a short time and sometimes forget the rules. Sorry.


A wasted troll is a shameful thing, but take solace that some among us Lol'ed.
User avatar
TallGrass
Posts: 1870
Joined: 6/29/2012
14er Checklist Not Entered
13er Checklist (16)

Re: Please stay on the trail. ACTION?

Postby TallGrass » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:50 pm

Seriously ON-topic, given the low difficulty rating and #1 elevation status making it popular, what about making some sustainable trail? Yes, rocks (steps, fill) and or logs (breaks) would have to be hauled up, but I think it would 1. help define the "proper" trail and 2. abate erosion. If you wanted to be spiffy, you could even add some "turn outs" for downhillers to use in order to yield to uphill traffic (don't you hate it when slow-moving RVs with 20 vehicles behind them pass up those opportunities?).

Who's willing to commit time and sweat beyond keystrokes and pics? I for one would be willing to schedule my next trip out there around it! :-D

Can you add this to the "possible projects" list at CFI, Bill? Given the traffic, it'd be some great exposure for CFI (and any other co-working groups like VOC, CMC, RMYC, etc.) as well as an opportunity to share knowledge with the general hiking public who may not venture onto more difficult 14ers.

Sweat talks, keystrokes walk? :twisted:
Not sure if I'll do more 14ers. The trip reports are too tiring. :wink:
"A few hours' mountain climbing make of a rogue and a saint two fairly equal creatures.
Tiredness is the shortest path to equality and fraternity - and sleep finally adds to them liberty."
User avatar
MUni Rider
Posts: 953
Joined: 7/31/2007
14er Checklist (49)
Contact:

Re: Please stay on the trail. ACTION?

Postby MUni Rider » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:48 pm

TallGrass wrote:Seriously ON-topic, given the low difficulty rating and #1 elevation status making it popular, what about making some sustainable trail? Yes, rocks (steps, fill) and or logs (breaks) would have to be hauled up, but I think it would 1. help define the "proper" trail and 2. abate erosion. If you wanted to be spiffy, you could even add some "turn outs" for downhillers to use in order to yield to uphill traffic (don't you hate it when slow-moving RVs with 20 vehicles behind them pass up those opportunities?).

Who's willing to commit time and sweat beyond keystrokes and pics? I for one would be willing to schedule my next trip out there around it! :-D

Can you add this to the "possible projects" list at CFI, Bill? Given the traffic, it'd be some great exposure for CFI (and any other co-working groups like VOC, CMC, RMYC, etc.) as well as an opportunity to share knowledge with the general hiking public who may not venture onto more difficult 14ers.

Sweat talks, keystrokes walk? :twisted:


I just spent my weekend working on a trail project for VOC. That does not make me an expert on the subject, but judging from the pictures in the original post, there is not a lot of large rocks anywhere near the amount that would be necessary to fix one trail, let alone fill in the other 6. The best thing for the hill would be for a trail that zig zagged up, but it's not steep enough to keep people from cutting switchbacks, so I don't have an answer for that. But several thousand rocks in the 2 foot x 1 foot x 3 foot size to be hauled UP? LOL. ---okay, if you haul them up, we'll put them into position. Generally, rocks are moved from an upper location, if possible. I hiked Elbert from another trail, so I don't know how far those upper rocks might be.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." (Theodore Roosevelt)

"Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit." (Edward Abbey)
pills2619
Posts: 117
Joined: 10/10/2010
14er Checklist (13)

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby pills2619 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:07 pm

Beans is correct. F=ma yes but PV=nrT where P=pressure, V=volume, n=number of moles of the gas, r=ideal gas constant and T=temperature in kelvins or PV=NkT for you physics people. For a mountain bike tire the only variables that can be changed are pressure, volume, and temperature but temperature is not important in this situation given the relatively small pressure and volume changes for our constant number of moles of gas. So where the only two variables that can really be changed are pressure and volume and because they are inversely proportional or always equal to nRT we really only care about the volume of the tire. The volume of the tire is directly related to the deformation from equilibrium so for this application it is related to the surface area change of what ever the tire is being deformed by, which is generally the ground. So because the tire has an internal pressure of 30psi is can only push back against the ground with 30psi but it compensates by pushing back with more surface area. This is why a bike tire has a more uniform pressure. Whether or not this practically translates to trail damage who knows. Also bike tires are way more flexible than a tractor tire so the 1-2psi change would not exist here but even if they did that is less than a 3% change in psi. I personally am an avid mountain biker and hiker and am well aware of the fact that most of the damage that can be caused by bikes are due to the way you ride them and it is also part of being a responsible mountain biker. It also so happens that because static friction is greater than kinetic friction its aids me to not skid my tires but to keep my tires from locking up at all which is also the best way keep the trail form eroding.
They forget that some crisis is necessary to hone skill. "Near misses," those brief encounters with the reality of mortality, are great learning tools if properly approached. -Denali Climbers Guidebook
User avatar
TallGrass
Posts: 1870
Joined: 6/29/2012
14er Checklist Not Entered
13er Checklist (16)

Re: Please stay on the trail. ACTION?

Postby TallGrass » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:25 am

MUni Rider wrote:there is not a lot of large rocks anywhere near the amount that would be necessary to fix one trail, let alone fill in the other 6.

Don't always need rocks as shown here on Uncompahgre and there are a variety of methods CFI and the like have successfully employed. These are neither new nor unsolved challenges.

Seriously, wouldn't it be nice to see the "Elbert combine trail" go to this:
Image
then this
Image
and eventually as it ages, flora rebounds, this? (Ok, the big lopsided boulder on the skyline would NOT be part of Elbert; that WOULD be too much work.)
Image
Considering the last one lies between other twin-tracked (4x4) sections, I'd say that's a pretty good recovery!
Not sure if I'll do more 14ers. The trip reports are too tiring. :wink:
"A few hours' mountain climbing make of a rogue and a saint two fairly equal creatures.
Tiredness is the shortest path to equality and fraternity - and sleep finally adds to them liberty."
User avatar
Jim Davies
Posts: 7862
Joined: 6/8/2006
14er Checklist (58)
14ers in Winter (1)
13er Checklist (61)

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby Jim Davies » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:18 am

CFI knows about this trail; on their Mount Elbert page, they describe the south route as "very steep and in need of repair". It's probably on their long-term list, and if you watch this page they will probably have a project to improve it, eventually. In the meantime, you can work on other trails if you want to help out - they always need volunteers (as do other trails organizations - CFI isn't the only game in town). Obviously, they need to prioritize so they must feel this isn't bad enough to be put on this year's schedule.

I'd advise against trying to bootleg this project. Getting trained and experienced trail builders involved early will lead to a more sustainable trail in the long run.
Climbing at altitude is like hitting your head against a brick wall — it's great when you stop. -- Chris Darwin
User avatar
BillMiddlebrook
Site Administrator
Posts: 7525
Joined: 7/25/2004
14er Checklist (58)
14ers Skied (46)
14ers in Winter (21)
13er Checklist (161)
Contact:

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby BillMiddlebrook » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:29 am

I agree.

Getting projects on the list takes time and partnership with the Forest Service. I don't think it would be a huge project but it will require more than just dropping a CFI "Hot Shot" crew in there for a short time. The area likely needs a re-design, including switchbacks and some materials dropped in for check-steps, water bars, etc.
"I have made it through the things others would surely die just watching"
- Megadeth
User avatar
ajkagy
Posts: 2661
Joined: 1/7/2007
14er Checklist Not Entered
Contact:

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby ajkagy » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:40 am

BillMiddlebrook wrote:I agree.

Getting projects on the list takes time and partnership with the Forest Service. I don't think it would be a huge project but it will require more than just dropping a CFI "Hot Shot" crew in there for a short time. The area likely needs a re-design, including switchbacks and some materials dropped in for check-steps, water bars, etc.


+1, might take some time to get a proper design in place and get it approved.
User avatar
jdorje
Posts: 1483
Joined: 6/16/2010
14er Checklist (11)
13er Checklist (22)

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby jdorje » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:45 am

After all the effort we went to to push this off topic, a single post manages to get everyone back to the original subject? What is this community coming to?
-Jason Dorje Short
User avatar
tlongpine
Posts: 814
Joined: 1/10/2011
14er Checklist (26)
14ers Skied (1)
14ers in Winter (2)
13er Checklist (4)

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby tlongpine » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:02 am

jdorje wrote:After all the effort we went to to push this off topic, a single post manages to get everyone back to the original subject? What is this community coming to?


On it....

"Combine Trail"?

This is a Combine:
combine.jpg
combine.jpg (68.89 KiB) Viewed 402 times


This is a Disc Harrow:
one-pass-plow-03.jpg
one-pass-plow-03.jpg (37.83 KiB) Viewed 402 times


So, lets call the Elbert Trail what it is, "the Disc Harrow Trail".

Know your farm implement, gentlemen.

[youtubevideo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwupSE8zdO4&list=UUXj61L1xSYoP57NV58j-Kwg&index=10&feature=plcp[/youtubevideo]
I am unable to walk away from the mountain without climbing it. An unclimbed mountain tugs at my consciousness with the eternal weight of time itself. Until I've pressed my face into it's alpine winds, hugged it's ancient granite walls, and put it's weathered summit beneath my heal I'm unable to resist it's attraction.Knowing nature gives the mountain more time than she gives us adds urgency to the obsession. As has been said before; the mountain doesn't care.

It can wait forever. I cannot.
User avatar
djkest
Posts: 1588
Joined: 9/7/2009
14er Checklist (58)
13er Checklist (16)
Contact:

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby djkest » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:01 am

DeucesWild wrote:I always try to defer to the experts among us. In this case, I'm not a physician so I'll have to apply Mensa intuitive reasoning and get back to you both, Wildbobo and LooongPine.


Sorry, but this is bugging me; and I'm not even sure if this was intentional or not.
A physician practices medicine.
A physicist is a scientist who specializes in Physics.
Life is a mountain, not a beach.
Exploring and Wine, my personal blog
User avatar
DeucesWild
Posts: 624
Joined: 9/12/2011
14er Checklist (58)
14ers in Winter (1)
13er Checklist (1)

Re: Please stay on the trail.

Postby DeucesWild » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:19 am

djkest wrote:
DeucesWild wrote:I always try to defer to the experts among us. In this case, I'm not a physician so I'll have to apply Mensa intuitive reasoning and get back to you both, Wildbobo and LooongPine.


Sorry, but this is bugging me; and I'm not even sure if this was intentional or not.
A physician practices medicine.
A physicist is a scientist who specializes in Physics.


Oh man, you're sharp as a tack, Jester!

Please feel free to continue to correct by bad vocabularizations. I need all the help I can get in becoming a journeyman Mensan.

Thank you.
Snowflakes, Uber Alles!

www.deuceIRA.com. Put the Douche in your FiDeuceiary needs today!!

Return to “Just Starting? Info for 14er Beginners”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests