What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

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DArcyS
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by DArcyS »

dhgold wrote: Part of my motivation to compile these rankings was my recent ascent of Peak Fifteen and subsequent feeling that its historical rating in the 5.2 range substantially belied its overall difficulty and seriousness. In some respects it felt to me like a bigger undertaking than Turret Ridge, the near consensus choice as hardest ranked summit above timberline in Colorado. So I was pleased to see that P15 came out at the top of my rankings, tied with Turret.
Nice effort Dave, I like your approach. I do question the result for Peak 15, though. At the saddle, did you traverse out a hundred feet or so and then head up, or did you follow the rap route? Traversing out from the saddle seems to lead to pretty easy climbing. (Or at least I found the climbing on Peak 15 to be easy to follow. :lol: ) I also climbed it in late June, and this may have made for an easy snow climb that covered up some class 4 junk in the gully. I considered Peak 15 to be the 3rd hardedst behind Jagged (#2) and Lizard Head (#1). I'd probably also bump up Coxcomb into the intermediate area, as well.

If I were to revise your system, I'd probably have a little greater emphasis on the technical climbing (with a multiplier like x2) and a little less on the seriousness, which involves remoteness. The seriousness tends to bump Peak 15 and Jagged up and make them appear harder than Lizard Head, but I'm sure there are many people out there who would be more than happy to have 20 mile backpack to Lizard Head if it meant "magically" reducing Lizard Head from a 5.8/5.9 climb to one around 5.4. Or I've often thought about what value Lizard Head would have on an imiginary peak bagger exchange market -- e.g., how many class 2 peaks would you need to trade in for a Lizard Head, how many class 3 peaks is worth a Lizard Head, etc.

Again, nice post! =D>
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by Monster5 »

Awesome post and interesting perspective. I suspect that of the few to have climbed those 15, you're the only one to have led the cruxes on all of them?

As per 12ers, I haven't done much and can't speak to them. I thought sharkstooth was pure fun.

As per 13ers, I kind of thought lizard head was a bit easier overall than expected and others required more overall effort. I'm certain some of that is because the route has been cleaned up significantly, but the cruxes were well protected and the approach was quite short. Otherwise, it's a bit hard to gauge the 13ers because of non standard routes or traverses. Dallas had a trail all the way up to the crux. Teakettle was significantly more annoying but the climbing was easier. I can see 15 ranking up there for effort.
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by dhgold »

D'Arcy,
On P15, after the saddle we went left about 150-200' and ascended the first weakness we found. I believe we ascended what Furthermore, in his TR of your ascent, called the "first gully". The weakness we ascended is visible in the annotated version of the photo of P15 taken from the Eolus massif in d_baker's TR of P15; our line is well to the right of the red line leading to "Terri's belay" and comes out of what appears to be the shadow of P16. I don't believe the way we went is the standard route since I was able to place almost all of my handful of pieces while other TRs, such as Furthermore's, reported only finding two placements. However, even if this pitch was entirely eliminated from the climb, I might still consider P15 overall harder than Jagged. I thought the loose, wet fourth class gully getting up to the P16 saddle added a lot of seriousness to climb. The rock on Jagged is better and the climbing style suited me better than P15's crystally friction slabs. My ratings apparently accurately reflect my strengths, weakness and biases -- but not yours -- since I found Coxcomb to be in a different, far easier, league than either Jagged or P15. One factor that does make me question my ratings for these peaks is that I did Jagged and Coxcomb a few years ago when my rock climbing mojo was a lot stronger -- I wonder if I'm getting soft.
Comparisons with Lizard Head intrigue me too. I'd be more comfortable and confident taking a beginner rock climber up LH than P15.

Monster (I hope you don't mind the informality of my dropping the 5),
Teresa Gergen and I are the only people to have logged all the peaks on that list on LOJ. I know that, at the least, she didn't lead on Turret or Rabbit Ears. Of the routes I did on those peaks, Sharkstooth was by far the best (most enjoyable) rock climb by conventional criteria.
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by SnowAlien »

I am with DArcyS that I'd put a much bigger emphasis on YDS. Yeah, approaches have to count for something, but ultimately, it's the climber's ability to deal with YDS rating that is the deciding factor. I do agree that Pk 15 > Jagged (not by much, honestly). Coxcomb is odd, because you end up toproping 5.6 section on the return, which reduces the difficulty and risks significantly. If one was actually to lead the crux, then Coxcomb would be harder than either Pk 15 or Jagged. Personally, I am looking forward to LZ eventually! :) Climbing style also has to do a lot with the perception of difficulty of the climb, but again, I'd stick with YDS as the main criteria.
DArcyS wrote:If I were to revise your system, I'd probably have a little greater emphasis on the technical climbing (with a multiplier like x2) and a little less on the seriousness, which involves remoteness.
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by benners »

Cool thread, I find these kinds of comparisons interesting.

I was surprised to read that some would consider Jagged to be in a similar realm as Fifteen (even one assertion that Jagged is harder), as I found Jagged to be much easier. That gully at the bottom of Fifteen was wet when we climbed it and made for a perfect rock funnel shooting gallery for anything that happened to come down from the upper portion of the peak. I thought it was one of the more dangerous places I've ever been on a mountain. Then the technical portion itself didn't have much in the way of good protection and felt a lot more like 5.5 or 5.6 climbing to me than 5.2 (but I realize now that we may not have found the easiest route). To get off the peak took 5 rappels which became time consuming, including 2 that we did in the aforementioned gully which increased our time exposed to rockfall potential and wore on our minds. Jagged was a breeze in comparison in my opinion, in terms of the hardest move and overall danger/difficulty, the ability to downclimb the cruxes as opposed to rappel, etc.

But this just goes to show each and every person's perception is going to be different. An experienced rock climber who doesn't do much backpacking might say Lizard Head is significantly easier than Jagged/Fifteen, whereas hikers/backpackers just getting into rock climbing might view Lizard Head as a next-to-impossible climb. dhgold's rating system tries to capture this idea and account for it, which is cool. dhgold also touched on an another interesting point - that a person's fitness level, mental preparedness, and recent activities (i.e. "mojo") when they climb a particular peak probably play a larger role in how that person views the peak than we might give credit to. Confidence is super important when it comes to this stuff.

I also found Coxcomb to be harder than Jagged. I dunno, maybe we just had an exceptionally smooth day on Jagged.
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by Teresa Gergen »

I think Dave's analysis is really interesting. I come from completely the opposite end of things, used to long backpacks to get into places with ugly approaches, used to hauling my overnight pack over the tops of peaks with rotten rock in the process of getting somewhere remote to climb other peaks, and not at all used to the kind of serious technical climbing Dave does. I can only kind of fake it as a leader of easy technical peaks, although I can solo low 5th class if I carry the gear to rap down, which I virtually always do when I'm solo in places like WY and CA. I have never claimed to be much of a leader and freely admit I have often depended on others (including Dave; thanks!) for help with the technical peaks on my lists.

A lot of the peaks that have been mentioned did not seem that hard to me and I soloed without a rope. But yes, that ignores the effort of getting to them and the quality of the rock, which is Dave's (valid) point.

I led part of Jagged.

I soloed without a rope: US Grant, Pilot Knob, Heisshorn, Peak Nine, Precarious, El Punto, 13060, 31017, Peak Q, Babcock, Dragons Back, Elephant, Chair, Angel Knob, Sheepshead.

I had a partner but didn't use a rope on Monitor, Clark.

I led Pilot Knob, Peak Nine, El Punto, 13017, Sleeping Sexton, Dunsinane, Dragons Back, 12740 either the first or second time I climbed them.

I used rope tricks when I was solo on most of the peaks I've climbed that just have summit boulder problems.

Some of these peaks are really only Class 3 or 4 with exposure or very bad rock. I am fortunate in not being affected by exposure. I'm cursed by being irrationally afraid of sliding, including on snow and very loose rock. Things like this greatly influence people's opinions about which peaks are memorable.
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by TallGrass »

Without an empirical standard, weather and "pulse" come into play as well. A Misattribution Study showed how fear could be interpreted as infatuation as both involve increased heartbeat and dilated pupils. There's also the fisheye or magnifying effect of adrenaline, switching the body's recorder to high-speed film. Exposure, acrophobia, thunder rolling in, losing the route, all can intensify ratings, just as good conditions (dry, grippy rock) and easy-to-follow trail can lessen them. The Influence on Confidence is likewise interesting.

Thunder made me hasten off Teakettle, not because of lightning concern, rather I didn't want to deal with wet or muddy conditions in the black gully and other mixed scree areas. It added tension followed by relief (when the slope mellowed and rockfall was no longer a threat) that would be absent on a sunny day, though that could have its own heat tension (discomfort, dehydration). Would that affect my rating of it? Hard to say other than no one component felt very hard, but the cumulative and sustained string did make for a good challenge! Looking forward to doing many more listed here. :-D
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by TomPierce »

I agree with benners, an interesting thread. I've led all but a handful of the discussed peaks, fully agree that ratings can vary by the rater, the route and the conditions on that day. IMO the biggest factor to weed out is fear/exposure; an infrequent tech climber probably rates things much higher due to the stress of exposure. For example, the popular Chimney Rock climb out by Ridgway is rated 5.6, I think?, but I've told others I thought it was a single 5.4 move getting into the chimney, then a steady diet of 5.2, if that. FWIW, when rating a climb I mentally try to imagine if I was doing the moves in my living room, 2 feet off the ground, i.e. was it really a hard move, or was it a stressful move because you were on wet rock 20' above a sketchy piece? That's the only useful assessment to me, and exposure/pro is to some extent already captured in the YDS suffixes (R/X). But the proposed rating system is interesting.

As to the discussed ratings, interesting to read the reactions to Peak 15. Not sure I'd rate it so highly, but as mentioned all ratings are to some degree subjective. Fully agree with monster that it's all about the route-finding on that peak. I mentioned to a recent ascent party that IMO there isn't a single route on that mountain. Probably tons of lines, most of them pretty straightforward, IMO no need for rock shoes at all but they'd no doubt add confidence for some. We just picked the path of least resistance, of which there were many, didn't follow a TR route at all. I wouldn't call it a mere scramble, but close, 5.2? Yet others obviously had a different experience, unlike benners we had no noteworthy rock fall to speak of. And I've always thought Lizard Head was a 5.7, maybe 7+ for a 10-15' section, but once again it varies by rater and route. My experience was on the elegant, sunny Ellingwood Route. That awkward, wet, birdpoop-filled slot route that many seem to prefer probably is 8/9; I started up it but we came to our senses and moved to the right.

Again, everyone rates things differently. It's sort of like that new series of GEICO commercials: Climbers quibbling with ratings? It's what they do. :lol:
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by Sean Nunn »

It makes me jealous that so many of you:

1. Have so much more time to climb mountains than I do, and
2. That you have so much more skill than I do.
Fun stuff to read and dream about though.
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by Monster5 »

Weighting technical difficulty higher also gets tricky when it comes to leading and seconding. Somebody climbing Lizard Head or Dallas on top rope might find them fairly reasonable relative to some random high effort non-roped outing such as Ripsaw.

Naturally, the only way to compensate for route selection, conditions, mojo, etc is to use a consensus. In which case, the Kirks, Furthermore, and Tom, among others, better get moving! I'm willing to verify successful turret ridge summits as the belayer.

I thought the bird poop slot on LH was accurately rated at about 5.8+; walk a #4 up and its basically a top rope. I've heard good things about the sunny Ellingwood variation. It sounds like that should be the standard. Using extended ratings, I'd say the standard goes at 5.8+/5.6 PG13. I went right for pitch 1A through steep questionable blocks - plenty of spots for small cams. For 1B, I stayed in the chimney, which suited my marginal strengths, rather than taking the left wall which seemed a bit more gym like and pumpy, though it had a couple fixed pieces. All in all, LH seemed very much like a North Table 5.9.

Though Coxcomb was harder technically, El Punto and Heisshorn were more worrisome. Coxcomb was solid and yes, the crux was on TR. The rest was thoughtful 4th class (CA is seriously screwing with my perception; N ridge of Conness??). Pilot knob and s lookout required similar attention to holds but the holds were all reasonable and the routefinding was short. The scree slope up to pilot knob's saddle worried me more than the climb itself, but I'm rather timid about loose rock and rock fall.

We took a beginner climber up Teakettle/Coffeepot. After dealing with the dinner plate scree, she had no issues and quite enjoyed the summits. In that case, and in many cases I seem to think, the class two section was the route crux rather than the technical difficulties. The mental aspect.

Thus far, it has been my experience that the more popular a peak is, the more overhyped it is as well. When a relatively obscure peak, such as 15, is highly regarded, well, that means more to me than say Thunder Pyramid's reputation.
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by Teresa Gergen »

Ryan, you're right about being a second on a rope and having that climb seem easier than some less/non-technical solo climbs without a rope.

I think exposure is a huge factor. I had no second thoughts about El Punto, Heisshorn, or Pilot Knob, and happily repeated El Punto and Pilot Knob. Didn't strike me as worrisome at all. People who are sensitive to exposure have a hard time imagining what it would be like to simply not have it bother you at all. But my fear of sliding on loose rock and snow is exactly the same thing. I'll watch people just mosey on down something that has me being ridiculously cautious and can tell they can't figure out for the life of them what's wrong with me.
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Re: What are the top 10 toughest 13ers/12ers?

Post by Furthermore »

Listing the top 10 toughest 12ers and 13ers is hard so I've included an expanded list. As discussed, there are many factors which can make a peak tough. In order of emphases, here is how I've ordered my list:

-Technical difficulty (T)
-Technical logistics (TL)(i.e. multi pitch, series of rappels, etc).
-Choss (C)
-Route finding (RF)
-Risk (R) (i.e. lack of pro, rockfall hazards, etc)
-Approach (A)

I think there has been a lack of importance on technical logistics. If all goes well, no problem but any complication in this department can drastically increase difficulty/seriousness.

I didn't include exposure since the only thing making exposure tough would be the 6 inches between someones ears. Also, I didn't include Silverplum and Whitney as difficult since there are just mere boulder problems.

Turret Ridge (haven't done) – T, TL, C, RF, R
Lizard Head – T, TL, C, R
Twin Peaks (12er) – T, TL, RF, C, R
Sharkstooth – T, TL
Peak 15 – T, TL, RF, R, A
Jagged – T, TL, RF, A
McReynolds – T
Dallas – T
Peak 9 – RF, R, C, A
Coxcomb - T, TL (Note: the up-climb could be bypassed with a double rope rappel down the north face making the technical aspect much easier)
Teakettle – T

Notable additions in no particular order.
Sliderock Ridge (12er, I haven't done) – RF, C, R
Pilot Knob – RF, C, R
Dragons Back – C
Heisshorn – C, R
El Punto – C
South Lookout – RF, C, R
13,322 – RF, C
13,300 & 13,302 – RF, A
13,498 – RF, C
Monitor – RF, A
Sleeping Sexton – RF
Precarious – C
13,060 – RF, C

There are probably many more peaks not included on the expanded list but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
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