Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Need a climbing partner? Trying to form a hiking group for an outing?
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SarahT
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby SarahT » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:08 pm

First I want to thank Jed for organizing this hike. It was great to meet you and everyone else that came along. I'm looking forward to doing it again before too long.

Secondly, some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves for berating this poor girl after her painful ordeal (mostly on that other thread). She's admitted her mistakes. Jeesh. Let me tell you its all fun and games until you make a mistake and find yourself in the spotlight one day. It doesn't feel so good. Show some compassion.

I think this was the first time I ever “signed up” to go on a hike with a large group of complete strangers and I have to admit that the trip dynamic was quite different than I am used to. It kinda threw me off balance. I felt like a “newbie to the situation” and wasn't quite sure how to act sometimes. With more and more of these large group hikes happening maybe its not a bad thing to talk about “rules and expectations” for lack of a better term and if/how they are different from those pertaining to more traditional hiking parties. Here are some things that stood out to me coming from a background of smaller hikes where I know nearly everyone:

1)At the start of the hike people just started trickling up the trail into the darkness as they finished getting ready to go. I didn't know how many people were ahead of me, how many behind, whether the ones up front would wait, what anyone's experience/ability level was, etc. I am used to starting a hike together as a group and having at least a general idea of the experience levels of my partners.

2)Lack of communication/direction. Most (including myself) did not know the exact route details when they left the trailhead. In fact, the route I thought we were taking wasn't even the one one on the agenda! When I plan trips for a small group of friends I do it such that my partners can come totally clueless and be just fine but this seems to NOT be the case with these big group hikes. A high degree of self sufficiency is required. I felt stupid for making this assumption and not researching all the details beforehand myself.

3)It was clear from the beginning that no attempts were being made to form a cohesive group. It was pretty much every man for himself. Faster folks did not try to wait for the slower ones. When Sarah started getting a considerable distance behind, Dominic & I got a little uncomfortable (we're used to sticking together). I said something to the rest of the group about her being pretty far back and reminding them that she'd never been out in winter. The response was that a second wave should be half an hour behind us and that she'd soon have company. Brian was still near her as well. I pushed the nagging feeling aside and continued on trying to behave appropriately in this new dynamic. Soon after breaking treeline Jed informed us he'd received a txt from Brian saying that he & Sarah had teamed up. I felt pretty good about the situation at that point.


Sarah - I had no idea about your lack of proper gear and I am very sorry to hear about your injuries. I guess this is one case where your strong sense of determination was actually detrimental. It was nice to meet you and I would be happy to go out with you again after you heal up & get some better gear. It'll be better next time, I promise.
Die Zeit ist unendlich lang und ein jeder Tag ein Gefäß, in das sich sehr viel eingießen lässt, wenn man es wirklich ausfüllen will.... Goethe
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby ultragirl » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:56 pm

I am sorry. I never meant to insult anyone. You are all seriously amazing and I admire each & everyone of you.

My endurance is of a different nature. And while I can run for 24 straight hours, I realized it wasn't the same as climbing a winter peak. We all come from different backgrounds/experiences- myself included. Yes, I realize that it is more than just gear. But in my humble opinion I think it came down to gear on Saturday. I realize I have a LOT to learn. (And learn I did.) I hope you'll forgive me.

Peace!
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Upstate Hiker » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:11 pm

Apology accepted.

With all due respect:

Orientation skills would have kept you from getting lost.
Avalanche class would have taught you to stay out of avy terrain.
Winter survival skills would have taught you the dangers of eating snow.
Proper snow travel techniques would have kept you from falling and would have reduced your travel time.

Sorry to be the jerk that points this out.
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby kansas » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:26 pm

Upstate Hiker wrote:Apology accepted.

Why are you accepting the apology?

From what I can tell, this entire incident had absolutely nothing to do with you, other than your desire to point out others mistakes on this forum. She had good info from Jed on what she needed to bring, she misjudged how serious things can get up there and luckily Brian is a solid, stand up guy. Lessons were learned on both sides, end of story.

Winter mountaineering is tough, nobody knows how tough until they give it a go.
"In the end, of course, it changed almost nothing. But I came to appreciate that mountains make poor receptacles for dreams."
— Jon Krakauer
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby astrobassman » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:28 pm

Upstate Hiker, you started off by ripping into Jed, and now Sarah again. Jed was just trying to pull together a good outing and meet new people, which he did, and Sarah learned a lot in the process, albeit not in the ideal way. Both seem to accept it for what it is/was. Maybe you should get into the mountains more instead of being the armchair QB and whining so much on the internet?
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby AndYouSeeMe » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:35 pm

I really wanted to stay out of this, I really did.

So I will just say that I agree with astrobassmanColin 100%. Upstate you are coming off as quite the character here. I would love to hike with you sometime since you are perfect and have never made a mistake or needed to learn from a situation.

Sarah it was nice to meet you, albeit briefly, but I am glad everything worked out in the end. Also glad we were able to find the snowshoes and carry them down!
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby sgladbach » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:39 pm

In my not so humble and completely accurate opinion,

These general comments have some references to the Spread Eagle group, but are generic in nature and not intended to judge Saturday's group dynamic. Sometimes, however, I used that group's dynamic as an example.

A group that organizes on a public 14ers.com thread has a responsibility to all of its participants. Groups who do not wish to assume that responsibility should organize through PMs. That is not to say that the group must hike in formation or that a leader must be declared, but the group should assume a single safety dynamic.

1.Sarah had a responsibility (which it seems she met) to identify herself as an inexperienced winter mountaineer.

2.Though no such commonly accepted criteria exists on this forum, the person to whom she identified herself (Jed) must accept responsibility to tell her the trip is not appropriate OR give her the necessary preperatory information. If the person who recieved the Noobie's info is unqualified to help, the climber should be referred to another trip participant who can help make that call. Jed seems to have performed well in that role.

From here on , things could have been improved.

3. Yes, indeed, even in the dark, we should look at each other's footwear and ask pertinent questions about other gear, ESPECIALLY of those who've identified themselves as inexperienced. ( Commonly, in this situation, I show up at the TH with extra pairs of expedition mitts because I still haven't impressed my dictum, "Mittens Madatory, Gloves Optional." )

4.This is the time the inexperienced hikers should identify themselves to the rest of the group. Those not accepting a role as part of the group dynamic (....I have to be back in Denver at 5:00; I'll not be participating in the group...) should also identify themselves at this time.

5. Strongest hikers should keep the weakest in the forefront of their minds. Too often, I see the strongest hikers, those most able to be of assistance, reaching the car far too early for their strength to be of use. On your way down, help the newer hiker make a realistic determination about their progress and safety. Be realistic. Don't expect the other hiker to turn around if they are simply slow. They have worked hard to get here. Help them make a safe decision, not one that is convenient for you. (Think Anatoli Boukreev on Everest, 10-11 May 1996.)

6. A strong experienced team member sticks with the newbie (good job Brian.) All other members travel in a minimum of pairs. Or else, identify yourself as a non-member.

5. The inexperienced hiker has an absolute responsibility to turn back when they are weakening, when the group asks them to, or when a an experienced idividual asks them to.


7. The group accounts for all of its members before finishing the day. Good job to the Spread Eagle group.

The expectations need to change when a 'group' has been gathered. Again, if this is not your thing, head out w/ a few buds gathered through PMs or head out solo.

I go on a variety of trips. if I go out as part of a public group, I try to be responsible to that group. I enjoy this type of trip immensely, but not all the time. I often go out with a few "known" friends and maybe throw in a wildcard. Recently, I enjoyed a trip like this to Phoenix Peak; it worked out very well. The "wild card" was clear in relaying his abilities, knowledge, strenghts, and limitations. The holes were easy to fill in, because the communication was clear. Sometimes, often when the "right" partners are unavailable, I head out alone. There are many peaks where I wouldn't want to be responsible for a Newbie and I either get an experienced partner or head out alone. I get flack for solo trips, but they can be much safer than taking along beginner (i.e. Thunder Pyramid this winter. I'd have gone with Sarah T. Kiefer and the like, but nobody was available.)


To reiterate, there is no need to respond to these comments. They are 100% correct.
"We knocked the bastard off." Hillary, 1953
"It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves." Hillary, 2003
Couldn't we all use 50 years of humble growth?
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Upstate Hiker » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:48 pm

When did this become a personal attack on me? I think Sarah was apologizing for her statement about mountaineering being nothing but ultramarathoning with gear. The mistakes that were made on this trip were more than the run of the mill newbie mistakes and are a good lesson for all of us. I never claimed to be perfect.
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Upstate Hiker » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:49 pm

kansas wrote:
Upstate Hiker wrote:Apology accepted.

Why are you accepting the apology?

From what I can tell, this entire incident had absolutely nothing to do with you, other than your desire to point out others mistakes on this forum. She had good info from Jed on what she needed to bring, she misjudged how serious things can get up there and luckily Brian is a solid, stand up guy. Lessons were learned on both sides, end of story.

Winter mountaineering is tough, nobody knows how tough until they give it a go.


Let's not forget that she chose to ignore Jed's advice.
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby FireOnTheMountain » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:54 pm

I take Iman's approach:

Your playin cold music on the barroom floor
Drowned in your laughter and dead to the core.
There's a dragon with matches that's loose on the town
Takes a whole pail of water just to cool him down.

Fire! fire on the mountain!

:-"
Everyday is a G r A t E f U L Day here in the CO
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby highpilgrim » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:28 pm

Upstate Hiker wrote:Let's not forget that she chose to ignore Jed's advice.


Not necessarily. She's new, and may not know the difference.

Being ignorant is not the same as choosing to disregard.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson

Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
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Matt Lemke
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Re: Sat Mar 3 - Sangre 13er 5-Pack (FKA Princeton SW Ridge)

Postby Matt Lemke » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:53 pm

Could we get this thread locked?
I am a little upset at how everyone has been criticizing Sarah.
We have beat this one to death.
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