Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Need a climbing partner? Trying to form a hiking group for an outing?
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ClimbStewart
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club: Garden Bolting

Postby ClimbStewart » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:26 am

To Mr Safety AKA Mr Complainer:

Who are You? And why hide behind an anonymous screen name instead of manning up and using your real name and giving real opinions and thoughts instead of your cut and paste comments? I, at least, am willing to state my thoughts and opinions and use my real name. Agree or disagree, then we can have a meaningful discussion and dialogue.

You are so willing to state your opinions under the hidden disguise of a screen name, yet you are not willing to be part of the solution, nor are you willing to engage in what is a political discussion and solution to the Garden of the Gods protection situation. And believe me, it is political and highly charged.

Therefore, unless you are willing to step forward as a real person, then nothing I write is addressed to you but instead to the Springs climbing community that wants solutions and not just blathering talk and back talk.

To the Springs Climbing Community:

Yes, all of us who climb in the Garden of the Gods realize that much of the fixed protection is deteriorating. That is the nature of any hardware placed in rock, especially sandstone. All those pitons were placed in days past, before five-piece bolts and power drills became the norm for hardware and placing it.

Probably most of the fixed protection in the Garden needs to be replaced in the up-coming years with stainless steel bolts and hangers. If we want to do that, then we as a climbing community need to decide on a process that can be presented to the Colorado Springs park and rec department. We need to delineate exactly what needs to be replaced; what it will be replaced with; when it will be replaced; how fixed pitons will be extracted from the sandstone without further damage and what material will be used to repair the empty holes. We also need to decide how the materials will be paid for. Stainless steel bolts and hangers are expensive. Glue-in bolts and glue is more expensive. Lots of questions need to be ansered too, like: Should all anchors be 1/2-inch glue-in bolts? What, since we can't use chains or webbing, should be used for lowering from belay/rappel stations?

As I've pointed out before, there are also lots of questions about what is the best and most durable material to use to fill any holes. Tests need to be done and information on these tests needs to be presented to the city for their approval. I've done some preliminary research into this since Brian Shelton with Front Range Climbing Company and myself are going to be doing some stabilization work on the Kissing Camels formation atop North Gateway Rock.

If this is to be done, then a plan has to be made and approved before implementation. We can't go run around like a bunch of yahoos doing whatever we want out there. At one time, climbers had a pretty free time at the Garden. Now we just can't do that since lots of other people, like the parks department, are watching what we do.

On the other hand, despite what the complaining Safety Guy says, most of the fixed pitons at the Garden of the Gods do not suck. Most are fine for the job they do. I can't recall a fixed piton pulling out on a leader fall by anyone in the Garden. There was an accident a year-and-a-half ago when a man lowered off the Practice Slab from a bent-over museum piece bolt with stress-fractures from 50 years ago (rather than use a brand new 3-bolt anchor next to it) and it broke. But otherwise, can anyone give me any concrete data on fixed pitons pulling out at the Garden under load? Hmmmmm, I thought so. It hasn't happened or if it has, it's a rare occurrence.

Eleven years ago, Earl Wiggins and I pulled the bent pitons from Finger Traverse and replaced them with beefy 1/2-inch bolts. Ditto for other routes like Finger Ramp and on Tedricks. All those fixed pitons were really solid and difficult to remove. Took a lot of work. We replaced them, however, because the eyes on the fixed ring angles were worn and the welds on the ring were looking suspect. The pitons were fine though.

Another aspect that was brought up in the above thread related to cost. This is a big factor. Who will fund any kind of serious bolt replacement effort? Between Brian Shelton and myself, we spent almost $3000 equipping routes at Red Rock Canyon. We were able to recoup some of the cost by a small grant from Friends of Red Rock Canyon and some donations by appreciative climbers as well as sales of the guidebook, but the overall cost still hasn't been covered.

Again, this is part of the political process of Garden climbing. Any ideas on solutions Mr Complainer Guy or do you just like whining? Oh, and people are not "jumping at the opportunity to put up another 5.10 slab route" at Red Rock Canyon. Brian and I have put up a few more, but no one is jumping to do that. Plus climbing at Red Rock Canyon is a managed process and those routes were approved by Scott Abbott with the Park and Rec Dept before being bolted.

Lastly, if you don't like the current protection situation in the Garden of the Gods, then, duh, don't climb there. Go to Red Rock Canyon where even a beached whale can feel safe and protected from the realities of outdoor rock climbing. Better yet, go back into the gym and do your complaining/whining there.

Or even better yet, be part of the solution to get things done. It's easy to sit on your fat ass and complain and whine, but last I checked, that doesn't build consensus in the community, nor does it get fixed pins replaced with beefy bolts, nor does it get the approval from the city of Colorado Springs, who happens to own and manage this spectacular piece of real estate. I appreciate the climbers, like Micah and Susan, who have asked to be part of the process and are willing to step in and do some of the hard work necessary.

We already have a local climber action committee, headed by Bob Hostetler, the climbing rep on the Park and Rec board, and registered with the Access Fund, to address these sorts of issues. In fact, just this week I was talking with Bob about a clarification about area closures at the Garden of the Gods for raptor nesting. It seems some climbers were called down from Snuggles on the east face of North Gateway Rock last week and told that the area was off limits right now. But there is no posted sign showing what areas are closed and when. We're going to talk more with the city and the Colorado Division of Wildlife to get the wildlife closures clarified. But of course, Mr. Complainer, you wouldn't know anything about any of this since you're content to whine and bitch rather than get stuff done!

Cheers...Stewart Green

PS And yes, that is my real name. I don't hide behind cowardly screen names and psuedonyms because I'm afraid of what people might think or say!
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MikeyC
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby MikeyC » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:45 pm

I had the chance to climb with Stewart a few months ago (thanks again!), and he had explained a lot of the process of how the rebolting and such goes. I applaud the effort of all those involved with dealing with the city and getting out there to fix up the routes. I really enjoy climbing at the Garden although I don't get to very often. I would like to volunteer for replacing fixed gear if there is a team or party that goes out to do that. I don't have a ton of money but will certainly help out where I can as long as someone is willing to teach me what to do. Thanks again to Stewart and the front range climbing folks!

-Mike
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby Dancesatmoonrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:35 pm

I'm disappointed that this thread has deteriorated to a debate on bolting. It was started to share the joy of climbing wtih others.

This is the Climbing Connection section. I would politely request that those interested in the bolting topic be considerate enough to please take the debate to the gear and safety section. Let's please leave the Climbing Connection for hooking up with other climbers.

That said, I would like to thank Stewart Green for all his sincere hard work, time, and expense, put into helping to keep this area safe.
Stewart, please keep me posted on what I can do to help - I would be honored to donate my time, money, and expertise to make our Garden a safer and more enjoyable place to climb. We are so fortunate to have such an incredible place just a few minutes away.

OK, nuff said, can we please move the debate to the Safety section, and keep this thread for climbing outings, photos of Springs climbs, and hooking up with other climbers, please?

Thanks!


Jim




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Montezuma's Tower, Garden of the Gods
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Dancesatmoonrise
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby Dancesatmoonrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:40 pm

Many of us are still getting together on Wednesday evenings at 5:30 in the last parking lot at RRCOS for some after-work climbing.

Feel free to contact me if you're interested, or just feel free to show up. For beginners, it's perfect. For seasoned climbers, it's a nice respite from pumpy routes, and gives us a chance to "give back" to the sport and get some ropes up for some of the newer climbers. It's been an incredibly fun time and I've enjoyed meeting all the new folks.

Take care,

Jim
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby susanjoypaul » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:07 pm

Dancesatmoonrise wrote:I'm disappointed that this thread has deteriorated to a debate on bolting. It was started to share the joy of climbing wtih others.

It hasn't "deteriorated into a debate on bolting." None of the above posts are debating bolting, which is a totally different subject. Rather, the topic was raised about rebolting routes in the Garden, because, as the person who originally raised that topic stated, the "pro sucks." Let me go back and find the post that apparently sent this thread off in the wrong direction... oh, here it is:

Dancesatmoonrise wrote:Believe it or not there are some pretty fabulous routes in the Garden. As far as basic climbing. Pro sucks. A lot of them need to be upgraded an no one's doing it. But every now and then someone falls in love with one of those beautiful routes and they get retro'ed.

Huh... what do you know?

Note to self: Be wary of anyone who creates a second profile, then resurrects a thread three weeks after the last post, just to anonymously criticize someone whose thoughts are not in line with their own. Not the kind of guy I'd trust on the other end of my rope.
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mountainmicah83
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby mountainmicah83 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:31 am

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." -- Calvin Coolidge

Visit my blog at: http://mountainmicah.blogspot.com
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby Dancesatmoonrise » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:21 am

Micah, you're a stand-up dude.
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby mountainmicah83 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:45 am

Dancesatmoonrise wrote:Micah, you're a stand-up dude.


Dancesatmoonrise wrote:Micah, you're a stand-up dude.


Aw. Shucks. Thanks Jim. I wanted this to return to the thread you created it to be with your good intentions that definitely receive an applause from me.

If I had any pictures from this weekend at elevenmile since the weather forecast was unfavorable for 14ers, I would post them... but I don't....
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." -- Calvin Coolidge

Visit my blog at: http://mountainmicah.blogspot.com
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby rangerdrew » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:43 am

Is there another date coming up for the SCASC? There's three of us in Denver who'd be interested in cruising GOG with some locals. Ive been on Cowboy Boot Crack, the Tower, and a few sport routes that were quality. It'd be great to see what others are climbing down there.

Edit: Still rockin Wednesdays at 530?
I don't commute by bicycle everyday out of goodwill for the environment. Although, it is a positive externality. ~rangerdrew
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby Dancesatmoonrise » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:43 am

rangerdrew wrote:Is there another date coming up for the SCASC? There's three of us in Denver who'd be interested in cruising GOG with some locals. Ive been on Cowboy Boot Crack, the Tower, and a few sport routes that were quality. It'd be great to see what others are climbing down there.

Edit: Still rockin Wednesdays at 530?


Sorry, I was going to post that we called off yesterday due to the rains this week. But yes, every Wednesday at 5:30 there is a local meet-up group that we climb with at RRCOS, conditions permitting. Great folks, with a wide range of skills. It's a nice mid-week easy session to break up the week. It is, as some pointed out, almost exclusively easy low-angle slab stuff, mostly well-protrected, especially the left end of the whale, which is starting to become my favorite at that area, outside the Ripple wall.

There are also some really stellar routes in the Garden, much more varied, from delicate to power moves, from low angle to overhanging, from all-fixed to all-pro.

Right now the weekend is kind of up in the air - literally (weather) - supposed to dry out F-S-S here in town. If it rains hard again today, tomorrow may be out for sandstone but we'll play it by ear. Sunday may be good. Feel free to post or pm. I'd also be game for Shelf, or possibly South Platte.

Jim
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby Dancesatmoonrise » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:08 pm

We'lll be at RRCOS tomorrow (Wed) at 5:30. Hope to see some of you there!

Jim
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Re: Springs Climbers Afternoon Social Club

Postby mattpayne11 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:11 am

Thanks for the fun time last night Jim - grats on Ripple Effect *in the dark*

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