14ers.com

kimism72 wrote:Pucker, I will answer that in a most general way when I have time. There's a very good reason.

pucker_factor wrote:..
why does it take 17 rescuers to find one dog and one idiot?

MtnClimber82 wrote:

pucker_factor wrote:..
why does it take 17 rescuers to find one dog and one idiot?

General answer is because crews never know what the search and/or rescue will require. Having more bodies (within reason) available keeps everybody safe, especially in technical terrain. Doesn't mean they couldn't do it with less, just being prepared for the worst.

Edit: SCRG is a top-notch group of unpaid professional SAR personnel. It certainly isn't a case of lacking "practice" as you speculate.

Hungry Jack wrote:JC. Didn't we go through this drill about a month ago on the west ridge?

pucker_factor wrote:by definition you can not be unpaid and a professional. although i am sure they are very good at SAR and topnotch.

The main criteria for professional include the following:
1. Expert and specialized knowledge in field which one is practicing professionally.[5]
2. Excellent manual/practical and literary skills in relation to profession.[6]
3. High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative, marketing, photography or other work endeavours.
4. A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work activities while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed person, career, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests.
5. Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.
6. Appropriate treatment of relationships with colleagues. Consideration should be shown to elderly, junior or inexperienced colleagues, as well as those with special needs. An example must be set to perpetuate the attitude of one's business without doing it harm.
7. A professional is an expert who is a master in a specific field.

(adj) 6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business
...
(n.) 4. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

(adjective) qualified, trained, skilled, ... expert, experienced, finished, skilled, masterly, efficient,
...
(noun) = expert, authority, master, ...

Many who call themselves professional because they collect a fee are anything but (e.g. some mechanics).
Feel free to put forth whom you regard as the pro mountain rescuers who are not SAR, and consider whether or not in their qualified opinion if they'd consider SAR as colleagues, peers.

As they say in Ghostbusters, "Who ya' gonna call?" Just sayin'. . .

TallGrass wrote:

pucker_factor wrote:by definition you can not be unpaid and a professional. although i am sure they are very good at SAR and topnotch.

I do not consider SAR or any other NPO to be unprofessional solely by virtue of there being an insufficient "market" by which they can "capitalize" on in order to pay for their utilities and groceries.

If you want to play semantics, then "by definition" ...

The main criteria for professional include the following:
1. Expert and specialized knowledge in field which one is practicing professionally.[5]
2. Excellent manual/practical and literary skills in relation to profession.[6]
3. High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative, marketing, photography or other work endeavours.
4. A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work activities while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed person, career, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests.
5. Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.
6. Appropriate treatment of relationships with colleagues. Consideration should be shown to elderly, junior or inexperienced colleagues, as well as those with special needs. An example must be set to perpetuate the attitude of one's business without doing it harm.
7. A professional is an expert who is a master in a specific field.

(adj) 6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business
...
(n.) 4. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

and synonym

(adjective) qualified, trained, skilled, ... expert, experienced, finished, skilled, masterly, efficient,
...
(noun) = expert, authority, master, ...

Many who call themselves professional because they collect a fee are anything but (e.g. some mechanics).
Feel free to put forth whom you regard as the pro mountain rescuers who are not SAR, and consider whether or not in their qualified opinion if they'd consider SAR as colleagues, peers.

As they say in Ghostbusters, "Who ya' gonna call?" Just sayin'. . .

as stated.. i am sure the are excellent at SAR and topnotch. i swear people, my point was a, dont speculate to what you think i mean when i clearly didnt say that, B, most professionals are paid, which is the FIRST definition in any dictionary of professional. merely pointing out the funny way that the posting sounded, c, dont PM me and then go and post my comments, man up and dont hide behind a PM. d, just because you sit behind a desk and post pictures of motorcylces from kansas doesnt make you an english professor. E, this is a climbing forum, or am i wrong in that? F, why risk 17 SAR lives for a dog..agreed there was a human also involved, but still sounded like a whole lot, G, lose some weight and actually get outside instead of get after the new guy on the website.

tlongpine wrote:I've been watching the Dog Debate and thinking it's unnecessarily acrimonious and judgmental, but this weekend I witnessed a pretty appalling dog situation on Holy Cross that changed my thinking.

I passed two dogs (a golden retriever and a yellow lab) 100 feet below the summit. I went over to say hello and noticed that one of the dogs paws was bleeding. Upon closer inspection I learned all four paws were shredded and two were bleeding.

Upon reaching the summit - at 3:30pm - we met the owners. Two young women taking their time on the summit as they toiled over the appropriate frequency of Molly ingestion.

It was a wonderfully clear day so we hung out on the summit for about 30 minutes and the girls preceded our party on the descent.

We passed them at the point the dogs were left, as they struggled to get the golden to walk. It refused to go anywhere, and was almost as big as she was. They would've been stuck if it weren't for the fact that one of the day's last descenders had a 65 liter pack that wasn't filled with much. He stuffed his gear into their daypacks and carried the dog out on his back.

Thank goodness that guy was in the right place at the right time with the right gear, and was gracious enough to help. Kudus to you, helpful mountain stranger! Shame on you, reckless dog owners.

With the dog crisis averted we couldn't help overhear as their conversation turned back to important topics during the descent:
"I can't believe it's getting dark. We started early at 10."
"I pretty much smoke weed everyday, but try to keep Molly to a weekend thing."
"I don't know what we would've done if you we're there? Hahaha. We could've died."

Me? I'm joining the emotional and judgmental chorus of people who would never put my dog in a situation I can't get him out of myself.