Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Threads related to Colorado mountaineering accidents but please keep it civil and respectful. Friends and relatives of fallen climbers will be reading these posts.
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Marmot96
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by Marmot96 »

TallGrass wrote:^ Like those two teenagers, your powers of observation are lacking here, just as they were in your prior post, illusion. Have anything to say related to the topic, or just using it to troll?
As much as I don't want to contribute to this thread going off topic, please do explain. Your checklist that was posted a few months ago makes no sense.
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SkaredShtles
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by SkaredShtles »

Richard Derkase wrote:
Monster5 wrote:that link says teenage males have an increased likelihood of dying due to automobile accidents compared to the national average, which has little to do with two individuals getting lost.
Ok, I'll concede the link was not as specific as it could have been. I'll look for something more concrete. However, consider teenage males driving and dying at a much higher rate than others. Why is that? It's because they, more than any other demographic, take unnecessary (and sometimes stupid) risks in driving, just as they do in many other aspects of the way they choose to live.
I'd say it's not just male TEENS - bump that upper limit to... about 25 or so. Young adult males of our species are REALLY morons on average.
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tlongpine
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by tlongpine »

SkaredShtles wrote:
Richard Derkase wrote:
Monster5 wrote:that link says teenage males have an increased likelihood of dying due to automobile accidents compared to the national average, which has little to do with two individuals getting lost.
Ok, I'll concede the link was not as specific as it could have been. I'll look for something more concrete. However, consider teenage males driving and dying at a much higher rate than others. Why is that? It's because they, more than any other demographic, take unnecessary (and sometimes stupid) risks in driving, just as they do in many other aspects of the way they choose to live.
I'd say it's not just male TEENS - bump that upper limit to... about 25 or so. Young adult males of our species are REALLY morons on average.
And we only get worse with age. Except at 34. That's the sweet spot.
I am unable to walk away from the mountain without climbing it. An unclimbed mountain tugs at my consciousness with the eternal weight of time itself. Until I've pressed my face into it's alpine winds, hugged it's ancient granite walls, and put it's weathered summit beneath my heal I'm unable to resist it's attraction.Knowing nature gives the mountain more time than she gives us adds urgency to the obsession. As has been said before; the mountain doesn't care.

It can wait forever. I cannot.
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tlongpine
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by tlongpine »

Richard Derkase wrote:
tlongpine wrote:And we only get worse with age. Except at 34. That's the sweet spot.
I'd agree but set a more reasonable upper end at 35... :mrgreen:

And my marmot is better than yours. JMHO

Dick
In a year I'll agree with you. :wink: Although the marmot might disagree.
I am unable to walk away from the mountain without climbing it. An unclimbed mountain tugs at my consciousness with the eternal weight of time itself. Until I've pressed my face into it's alpine winds, hugged it's ancient granite walls, and put it's weathered summit beneath my heal I'm unable to resist it's attraction.Knowing nature gives the mountain more time than she gives us adds urgency to the obsession. As has been said before; the mountain doesn't care.

It can wait forever. I cannot.
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by rmattas »

Hey guys, thanks for the tip on cotton balls and 100% petroleum jelly as a fire starter. Has anybody tried the TACT bivvy? 6.2oz. $25. That plus storm proof matches and these boys would have all their fingers and toes. 30$ total, 7oz. tops.

Thanks
"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton
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Jim Davies
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by Jim Davies »

The first night, it sounds like they were above timberline all night, so having fire starter wouldn't have helped (no wood available).
Climbing at altitude is like hitting your head against a brick wall — it's great when you stop. -- Chris Darwin
I'm pretty tired. I think I'll go home now. -- Forrest Gump
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by justiner »

I kinda want to start a little collection of items to send to these two as stocking stuffers, so the next time they're out, they're maybe a little more prepared.
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Nelson
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by Nelson »

justiner wrote:haha, yeah right. Moutaineering epics are like catching fish: they get more and more unbelievable with each telling.
As a fisherman, I am deeply offended by this comment. All my fishing stories are exactly true and documented (by my memory).
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TallGrass
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by TallGrass »

On brain development into early adulthood, prefrontal cortex, synaptic pruning, ...

"the brain reaches its peak power around age 22 and lasts for 5 more years. Afterwards, it’s a downhill pattern. Last to mature and the first to go are the brain functionality of executive control occurring in the prefrontal and temporal cortices."
http://nancyguberti.com/5-stages-of-hum ... velopment/

"As the prefrontal cortex matures, teenagers can reason better, develop more control over impulses and make judgments better. In fact, this part of the brain has been dubbed 'the area of sober second thought.' "
"If a teen is doing music or sports or academics, those are the cells and connections that will be hardwired. If they're lying on the couch or playing video games or MTV, those are the cells and connections that are going to survive."
Adolescent Brains are Works in Progress (PBS Frontline)

Their surfer-esque dialog isn't encouraging either as cognitive impairment from MJ, especially among youth, is pretty well documented.
rmattas wrote:Has anybody tried the TACT bivvy? 6.2oz. $25. That plus storm proof matches and these boys would have all their fingers and toes. 30$ total, 7oz. tops.
Jim Davies wrote:The first night, it sounds like they were above timberline all night, so having fire starter wouldn't have helped (no wood available).
Wind is the enemy, constantly leaching away body heat. While a windbreaking bivy would be good for solo, I think a 2-Person Bothy would have served them better at their first bivy because they could better attend to keeping their hands and feet warm by changing into clean dry socks and gloves (if they packed them) and maybe lining their boots with shopping bags. Hunkering down under an overhanging rock to sit out 30mph and rationing food may seem smart, but that prolongs exposure to the worst weather (convection), robs the body of calories it needs to offset the cold, reduces heat production by muscles by being stationary, encourages the body to deprive circulation to fingers as toes to keep the core warm (shunting), keeps the body on heat-robbing rock (conduction), and leads to a downward spiral. A 30mph wind isn't fun, but it's not that bad, and they may have been better served to keep moving down to treeline or as close as they could get as the wind concentration would lessen as they descended to a terrain with more cold-fighting resources.

Princeton has a pretty comprehensive overview along with some Do's and Dont's regarding rewarming:
Outdoor Action Guide to Hypothermia And Cold Weather Injuries
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DArcyS
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by DArcyS »

TallGrass wrote:
“To kind of give up and say, ‘No, I’m going to hand it over to God, He’s in control of this. He’ll give me what I need to get out of here.’ The next thing we know, we’re helicoptered out,” said Smith.

#-o https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_fallacy
Here's the whole quote:
<start>
“When we were in that meadow we just kind of, we were praying to God because He was definitely with us the whole time. It was probably the only thing that was keeping us alive and our ability to know that we were going to get back down safely,” said Hendricks.

“To kind of give up and say, ‘No, I’m going to hand it over to God, He’s in control of this. He’ll give me what I need to get out of here.’ The next thing we know, we’re helicoptered out,” said Smith.
<end>

Oh, Tallgrass, I suppose I might agree with you -- especially since it's rare that I pray -- that it's really hard to prove that prayer leads to the desired result of the person praying, but that doesn't mean it doesn't do any good. See this on the benefits of prayer. Based upon point 5, praying when things begin to go south in the mountains might have a benefit in helping one keep a positive attitude.

In fact, this reminds me of when I was in grad school and I was talking with my office mate who had just returned from a geologic field outing. She was telling me a story about how she had climbed into a difficult situation, began to cry from the fright, and said a little prayer. Upon hearing this, I kindly reminded her that she was an atheist. We both smiled. But no doubt the prayer helped her in some way at that moment.
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12ersRule
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by 12ersRule »

Did the hikers get lost again? Hard to believe this one keeps popping back to the top.

With the JK record, I could understand that being in the latest and greatest forever because he kept re-claiming his awesomeness. This thread...though? Kids got lost, got home, end of story.
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Re: Hikers Missing on Holy Cross

Post by TallGrass »

Darcy, some people select a peppy tune on their iPod to keep a positive attitude, but I doubt they'd conclude that's what got them "helicoptered out."
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