Avy Level 2?

[RestlessLegSyndrome]

Hi Dave,
I'm going to offer a slightly different opinion. Keep in mind to take it with a grain of salt, as the others here have very valid points as well, but here it goes.

I feel like I was in a pretty similar situation to yours a while back. I was dabbling in snow hydro research (spatial variability around dust layers), as well as becoming more proficient in backcountry skiing. Now, I've been teaching avalanche classes for 5 years and taken more advanced training.

In my opinion, the level 2 class was definitely beneficial (I took mine with Russel at CMS) and I really enjoyed it. That being said, the curriculum as it stands now is focused on the intro level science behind avalanches, not necessarily decision-making in avalanche terrain. Lots of your time will be spent digging advanced pits that are not necessarily practical on ordinary tours. It indirectly helped my decision-making, but mostly because it reinforced topics in the level 1, not because of new information within the level 2. If your goal is to become a more proficient backcountry traveler, I don't think that I would necessarily recommend taking the level 2. I think that taking another level 1 with a different instructor, and especially in a different snow climate, would be a better use of your time. You would have a lot of repeat information, but paired with good questions, it is a great use of your time. That being said, once you know the basics of a particular snow climate, the best thing that you can do is go out and ski and be sure that you are playing an active part in the decision-making process and asking lots of questions with your partners.

If your goal with taking the level 2 is to further your snow hydrology career, it is a different story. Learning the science behind taking and recording good snow and weather observations will serve you well. If your snow hydro career is going to be focused on avalanches, there is really no way that you can progress in the field without taking the course. If it is not, the course will still serve you well, but don't expect it to set you very far ahead of the "rest of the pack" so to speak. Most employers that I know will be looking more for internships, research, and college level classes.

Hope this helps. Happy turns.

[Dave B]

Thanks for all the awesome replies, this is all really great information.

Re: Markus Beck and AWA, as far as I know he is still doing classes but more as private groups instead of set offerings. My guess is the cost for four days of private guiding would be prohibitive unless I could get a group of 5+. It might be worth a call though. I met Rob C. last year climbing at Lincoln and he's a great guy as well, not sure if he's still with Markus though after he got his AMGA.

RestlessLegSyndrome - your information is quite pertinent, thanks. FWIW, I'm moving more in the snow hydrology direction after the majority of my research education has been in biology and micrometeorology (forest water cycling and canopy energy balance specifically). I'll be starting a post doc at CU working with a snow hydrologist to model rates of snow accumulation and ablation under forest canopies and other general snow pack energy balance studies. To this point however, my only education in snow science has been Avy level 1 and a refresher and what I've been able to pick up on my own. Hence, going into a snow science research path I've got some catching up to do and Avy level 2 can only help from a career perspective and any improvement in recreational skills are an added benefit.

I see lots of potential partners here, looking forward to a couple more winter storm advisories and getting out!

[Buckie06]

I'm bringing back this post for some opinions.

I've been thinking of taking a Level 2 course this winter, and unlike the original poster I'm not making a career out of snow science. I want to have better knowledge of avy safety in the backcountry.

for 2017 AIARE has created two different Level 2 classes, a Recreation and a Pro class.

Those that have taken Level 2, do you think it was worth it? Has anyone taken the new Level 2 Recreation?

thanks.

[Jorts]

I took mine through CMC in Summit. I thought it was somewhat worth it. If you've been digging in the snow and decision-making for awhile, I think you'll find it reaffirms and shores up a lot of the knowledge you've gained through experience.

Whereas Avy 1 scratches the surface and scares you a bit, Avy 2 digs into the particulars and helps builds confidence.

The more in depth snow science talks, weather/forecast discussions, and case studies were enjoyable. The heuristics duscussion my class had was really good. Heuristic traps are what usually kill the more experienced backcountry travelers.

[Jorts]

Pro goes more into forecasting and operational management for ski resorts, mine safety, rail/road safety, search & rescue ops. Rec is more companion rescue and go/no go decision making.

[Bean]

Rec is more companion rescue and go/no go decision making.

Companion Rescue is its own one-day class now, which is a prerequiside for the new Rec2 in addition to Rec1.

It's been a few years since I took L2 and I thought it was interesting. I plan to take the new Rec2 this season.

[Jorts]

Just referring to the focus of the course. Scenario: "Holy poopballs, your buddys have just been buried, go find them!"

[kaiman]

I'm bringing back this post for some opinions.

I've been thinking of taking a Level 2 course this winter, and unlike the original poster I'm not making a career out of snow science. I want to have better knowledge of avy safety in the backcountry.

for 2017 AIARE has created two different Level 2 classes, a Recreation and a Pro class.

Those that have taken Level 2, do you think it was worth it? Has anyone taken the new Level 2 Recreation?

thanks.

I can't speak to the new Level 2 Rec, but I took the Avy Level 1 in April 2009 and Avy Level 2 in April 2013 respectively at CMS in Estes Park. I don't remember the name of my Level 1 instructor, but Russell was my Level 2 instructor, and I really enjoyed working with him. If you are spending any time in the Colorado back country during the winter, or are looking at climbing glaciated peaks in other states/countries, I would highly recommend taking the Level 2 and it looks like the new Level 2 Rec is geared specifically towards your goals.

As others have pointed out, the Level 2 is much more of a hands-on field work oriented course, whereas the Level 1 is based more on the theory, with some field work thrown in. That's not to say you won't have extensive discussions on snow science, weather forecasting, etc. in the Level 2 course, but you will spend a lot more time examining things first hand, as well as working through simulated real-life scenarios with your group.

That being said, the Avy Level 2 is really just a starting point. You can't take into account every scenario you will run into in the back country during the winter in a 4 day course. So while you will walk away from the Level 2 with a solid knowledge base, only spending time in the back country during the winter will give you the wisdom to make appropriate decisions depending on the situations you face.

Just my two cents,

Kai

[randomboulder]

I took Level 2 last winter via CMS - and I definitely found it to be helpful. In level 1 they pretty much tell you to not to venture into Avy terrain until springtime when there's a consolidated snowpack. In Level 2, you spend a lot of time digging pits and evaluating all the factors to decide whether it's safe to ski on a particular slope (steeper than 30) on a particular day.

However, I kind of wish I had waited to take it this season now that they've split it into Rec and Pros. In my level 2 course I was the only person taking it that wasn't on a track to become a guide and the instructor was treating the course as kind of a Level 3 prep. I've talked to some guides about the differences in the new curriculum and it sounds like Rec Level 2 will focus more on decision making in bigger terrain with much less emphasis on things like documenting data and snow profiles perfectly in your field book and being sure that you are collecting an ambient temp measurement accurately by making sure the thermometer is free-hanging in the shade, etc that are more relevant to pro track.

[SnowAlien]

I took Level 2 with Silverton Avalanche school in March 2015. I like that it was a hut-based course and we all got immersed in the snow discussions for 4-5 days (food/beer all hauled in by sleds, simple meals cooked by a hut keeper - good times!). It was taught by practitioners with a lot of field experience - director of Silverton Avy center/head of local SAR and a Telluride Heli guide. Case studies, weather/wind discussions/ companion rescue were all very good. For snowpits, I have mixed feelings, as 15 of us spread out, dug 5 pits within 20 feet of each other and every group came up with a different conclusion - from "completely safe" to "let's get the hell out of here"! But everybody was there for the right reasons - on the first night, the instructor said: "raise the hand if you or your partner got caught in an avalanche before". Every single person in the room raised the hand, including all instructors.

[Buckie06]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I think I'll be signing up this winter. Now to figure out where to take it!

thanks

[Jorts]

Dan Moroz at CMC in Summit is a great instructor. He's been playing in snow for over 35 years and used to be head of avy ops for ski patrol at Cu. He's been a consultant for avalanche hazard mitigation at several of the mines in the area too.

He's a little bit on the cautious side with decision making but with a 1 in 1000 chance of a high consequence slide I guess the odds catch up with you over the years.

His assistants are both younger guys currently on patrol at Cu. One is an aspiring guide whose skied a lot of the bigger lines in Summit so he gives a different perspective and approach to avy hazard than the more cautious Moroz.