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Postby wildlobo71 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:50 am

Good reply Keifer, I also agree that they are complimentary, even planning a trip down to Uncompaghre and Wetterhorn last Labor Day, I printed reports from 14ers, 14erworld, and Summitpost... each had a different take, which I appreciate. I don't have a problem sending Steve $20 to be able to access his information. Between 14ers, 14erworld, LOJ, and Summitpost (not to mention the 1/2 of 1% of information I can find useful from TGR,) there's more information out there than I could begin to process. I choose to not interact as much in the FORUMS on 14erworld and Summitpost because I know there are few discussions outside of their TR that I find useful NOW.

If Bill had to charge for this site, the content and the members I have met and interact with through 14ers make it an easy decision for me to continue my support.
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Postby susanjoypaul » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:19 am

Kiefer wrote:Sticky subject. I'm very curious at how John deals with this very dilemma and what his operating costs are for maintaining LOJ.

I think it was *very* smart of John to add a List of Donations to his site. Not only does that give donors visibility for their contributions, but - if we contribute on an annual basis - it also reminds us when our next donation is "due."

I received a nice Christmas card from CFI a few weeks ago, as a thank you for a donation I made earlier this year, prompted by Bill's involvement in a fundraiser for that organization. I have it front and center on my mantelpiece, for everyone who visits my home to admire. These may seem like "small things" but they really do help to ensure future contributions. Sure, we should be ponying up the cash because it's the right thing to do, but it sure feels even righter when everybody knows about it. If that weren't true, there wouldn't be so many of us talking about it on the Internet.

Lately, I've curbed my donations, due to being laid off since June, but when I do start working again I know I owe and CAIC a token of appreciation. These four sites (LoJ, CFI, and CAIC) provide too much assistance to the mountaineering community to go unsupported by the thousands who rely on them.

Sorry to take this so far off-topic... I guess I feel a little guilty for being Ms. Scrooge this year, and the least I can do is encourage others to make a contribution to their favorite, free website.

As for Fourteenerworld, I have no feelings about that site one way or the other, but I will probably never join. The other sites have been here for me through thick and thin, when I have money and when I do not, when I have solid advice to offer and when I'm purely a nuisance. Kind of like my friends... they accept me with all my features and my faults, as I do them, and I guess that's just the kind of people that I like to hang out with.
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Postby Iguru » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:27 pm

I get all the 14er info I need right here. No need (for me) to go anywhere else. And it is all free.
Thanks Bill.
Time to buy something or outright donate.
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Postby Steve Bonowski » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:16 pm

Good comments from Steve G., Kiefer, Bill. One clarification: 14erWorld is now $7 per year; a change since it became affiliated with CMC. You can sign up via a link on the CMC home page. I enjoy both 14er web sites, altho I seem to frequent this one somewhat more. I don't use either site for finding climbing partners. If I want to hike with a group, I either hike with existing friends, or throw a trip lead into the CMC schedule.

Kiefer wrote: "it is unfortunate and bastardly that the more experienced folks DO NOT seem to take an interest or any stake in either coaching, helping, or assisting those new to the sport." Some of us actually do take an interest--just look at the instructor lists for CMC's schools. For me, I gave up teaching in CMC's basic and high altitude mountaineering schools some years ago because I LIKE working with the new people. I taught in our introductory hiking skills class for both sessions this year; and I'm taking 7-8 of the recent grads on their first winter climb this coming weekend. I keep leading 14ers I've done before in part to get newer CMC members out on them. Next year, I'm doing Elbrus VII to continue introducing newer climbers to the sometimes "dubious pleasure" of climbing something higher than a 14er.

As for the Baron's comment about "CMC p**sies," you're welcome to contact me sometime about going on one of my trips.
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Postby BaronVonBergschrund » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:22 pm

Steve Bonowski wrote:As for the Baron's comment about "CMC p**sies," you're welcome to contact me sometime about going on one of my trips.

You are missing some context.

Thanks for the offer but I don't have the time to take Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Hiking, Intro to Climbing, Intro to Mountaineering and 42 other classes to do a little winter alpinism.
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Postby BillMiddlebrook » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:22 pm

Hi, Steve!
Steve Bonowski wrote:14erWorld is now $7 per year; a change since it became affiliated with CMC. You can sign up via a link on the CMC home page.

Holy Cow! The CMC is subsidizing 14erWorld?? I must have really pissed someone off over there. :lol: Maybe I should call them and ask for $$?

Steve Bonowski wrote:As for the Baron's comment about "CMC p**sies," you're welcome to contact me sometime about going on one of my trips.

That original CMC comment was actually made by someone who went off in the forum the other night. He/she is no longer registered.
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Postby rob runkle » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Great summaries...

I started on 14erworld, way back when was just some hiker dude collecting rocks, and posting pics on his website. Hahaha! ;)

Having said that, their models have certainly gone in different directions. certainly higher volumes, more information. World, is low volumes, but very specific information, and little repeats. Newer people tend to benefit from massive amounts of information (14ers). The more experienced people tend to want very specific information (world). Having said that, anyone can benefit from both.

I go both ways - err, websites that is...
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Postby mattpayne11 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:30 pm

BillMiddlebrook wrote:mattpayne11,
Once traffic becomes massive, the required hosting costs go up considerably. With the combination of high traffic and bandwidth requirements (think thousands of people downloading photos, map, etc. all day long), there's a need for a web hosting plan that provides a huge amount of bandwidth. The issues of up-time, reliability, backups, and server size are also very important when so many people are using the site. When choosing a web hosting plan/company, you get what you pay for.

Very well said. You have a way with words!

Understood. Well hopefully I get to live to see that happen to me :-)
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Postby Steve Knapp » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:53 am

Interesting topic! I am a member of both sites and visit both almost daily. Though I do post more on 14W than here. Here are some of my observations.


A great website, I've been a member for many years. Close-knit community, most frequent posters know each other. You get to know people by their real names, not mrhappy256. A much smaller community with only a few hundred members. Only a fraction of those post TR's or to the forum with any degree of regularity. Some claim that it is cliqueish, generally I have not found that to be true. Most people have finished the 14ers and have moved on to 13ers and lower peaks, even ranked county peaks (like trying to finish all the peaks in RMNP, LCW, Jefferson and Clear Creek Counties, etc). I am in this boat and therefore have a lot in common with folks on the site. Some have developed an interest in canyoneering, which I hope to do as well someday and it's great to read of their adventures. Many have other interests such as ice climbing, rock climbing, mountain biking and thats great too. The trip report database is amazing, particularly for any peak less than 14,000 ft. If you are trying to finish all the 13ers as I am, this is your best place for trip reports. I have met a lot of great hiking partners there. The cons are of course the fee, but again $20/year is not a large price to pay for this kind of site. I think the $7 annual fee discount is only for CMC members, which I am not one. Because of the fee the site only attracts people who really want to be there, you won't find trolls and many stupid postings. My biggest concern is keeping it an active online community. It does seem that forum postings, trip reports, and other activity has declined in recent years. As I mentioned only a small percentage of members frequently post, and that is unfortunate. Steve Hoffmeyer is a great guy and webmaster, he has done some things to try and improve the site like promoting it within the CMC and a brief partnership with Gerry Roach. And as someone else mentioned, it is the only place to read of Ken Nolan's winter adventures. Ken is an amazing, humble mountaineer that everyone respects and learns from. And Doug, many of us actually do miss you! I would encourage anyone interested in this kind of thing to join, you'll make some great friends if you put a little effort into it. Mike if you are reading this means you.

Another great site, thanks for all your hard work Bill! I wish this site existed when I was actively climbing the 14ers. I have met a number of great friends here as well. When I was climbing the 14ers, I could care less about any other lower peaks and this site would have fit me well. This site is very 14er specific, only infrequently do I read TRs or postings on 13ers and lower peaks. Which is OK, just different than 14W. The maps and route descriptions for 14ers are amazing and a great resource for those that need that kind of thing. I do read the trip reports here, especially this time of year when climbing a 14er is a much tougher task. The larger membership and increased forum traffic is both good and bad. Good because there are numerous active threads daily and usually several TRs every weekend. Bad because as with any active site there are trolls and useless postings, but I can ignore those. I don't always care about reading the numerous posts about what to expect on Quandary or Bierdstat next June when they visit Colorado, but to those people it is an important question. I don't know why I don't post here more often, I just seem to have more in common with people on the other site since I have climbed all the 14ers. Also, since the protocol here seems to be screen names instead of real names, I don't know who everybody is. I like to know people by their name, seems to be a culture difference between the two sites in this matter alone.


I'm not a member there but do visit infrequently. There's great information on some of the more obscure peaks, great photography, and a national/international community. If I'm looking for info on a peak outside of Colorado it is usually my first stop. Check out the number of TRs for peaks like Gannet, Grand Teton, Rainier, etc. The forum is not very active, probably because most members do not know each other well.


This is the site for technical rock climbing information in Colorado and many other states. An awesome resource if you need info on a technical climb and don't have the guidebook. I rock climb from time to time and enjoy reading the descriptions and observations of various climbs I've done or hope to do. An active, tight knit climbing community with many of the Colorado members knowing each other. If anything is cliqueish it might be here. But then, you really have to know your friends and partners well if you are trusting them with your life on the other end of the rope.

Lists of John:

Lastly a plug for one of my favorite sites. John Kirk is a good friend of mine and has invested thousands of hours developing his site. It's free and an awesome site, check it out if you haven't. For obsessive compulsive climbers (you know who you are) it has no match anywhere. You can find information on every ranked/named peak in the state. And almost every other mountainous state in the U.S. The maps are incredible, for every peak you can pull up a google terrain or highway map, topographic map, or satellite view. You can see which LOJ members have reported climbing it and when, along with any other peaks they did that day. For the numbers/statistics junkie it is addictive. You can see how many peaks you've done in any given time period (381 YTD ranked peaks for me), and how that compares to your peers. You can see (on a list or map) how many peaks there are in a county or wilderness area and what your count is there and whats left to climb. There's a weather and snow depth link for every peak. Many well known peak baggers use it and have their peaks listed - Mike Garratt, the late Bob Martin, the Roaches, Teresa Gergen, Kirk Mallory, etc. The forum isn't used much other than for specific questions and site updates and the TR database doesn't have much but the value of John's site is immense. I could go on and on, obviously I'm a big fan. LOJ has precisely what the other sites mentioned above lack and complements the others nicely.

I think I just wrote a book, I'll shut up now! :mrgreen:
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Postby MtHurd » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:33 am

LOJ +1
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Postby Derek » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:06 pm

Barry Raven wrote:LOJ +1


The time I spend on that site is absurd. A statistic nuts best friend.

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Postby sgladbach » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:25 pm

Kiefer wrote: ...........and as Steve Gladbach, George James and Wildlobo71 touched on, [14erworld members are sometimes considered] cladestinely egotistic.

Definitely DID NOT mean to state or imply that I find the users ar 14erworld egotistic. I have lots of friends over there and like their advice and company. I'd hate to find out that that they believe I consider them egotistical.

They are more conservative in that they tend to choose partners that they know, have climbed with, or come highly recommended. This high-priority moutaineering precept was rarely violated until recent years. Connecting with unknown partners on the internet doesn't seen so crazy these days on a standard route on a 14er. The 14er initiative, guidebooks, websites, and the sheer # of people on the mountain have mitigated some of the hazards of climbing w/ unknown partners.

14erworld members are often doing stuff outside the "Guidebook" purview. Can your partner read a topo and make a plan of attack for Keefe Mountain (hey, I began by quoting Kiefer, now I'm climbing his mountain!)? No trail, unknown rock, not likely to have another climber come along to help, not even a clear valley to approach. If you want a safe summit attempt with reasonable chance for success; who do you want with you?

Being choosy may seem egotistical, but it is reasonable. Out for a day hike for a 10th ascent of Sherman and tell someone they can't join you 'cause you don't want to be slowed down? Very egotistical.

Some consider me egotistical, but they're just confusing egotism with the fact that I'm better than everyone else (you too Baron.) Did you know my bowels spew lilac scented waste?
Last edited by sgladbach on Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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